Classical and Jazz Recording

[Devlarz]

Hello all,

I though I might tell of my recent attempts to get some engineering experience in the world of classical and jazz music.

Residing in the metro Detroit area I contacted, and received the answering machine for, the Detroit Symphony Orchestra Hall (Max M. Fisher building). I was inspired to pursue this avenue after reading the Marc Aubort article and thought, "well they may not go for letting me cut my teeth there but I won't know unless I ask." So that's just what I've begun doing. I imagine that persistance is what will grant me access.

I also have my eyes on a few of the local jazz spots as well and am crafting my approach to those venues while building up my list of said venues to approach.

I have a decent mic collection- CAD E100/200/95s, Rode NT2A, Oktava ML52/012/219s/319s, AKG C3000Bs and various dynamic and SDCs mostly Shure and AKG, and the ears to guide my placement. I have a pretty good idea about how I would approach engineering a jazz club but classical seems like a different beast altogether. Perhaps the Rode and CAD E200 in omni in a spaced configuration...

I use my ears and trust them to tell me what sounds best for any given application and room but how would you appraoch it? Just curious.

[AGCurry]

Did you read the latest TapeOp magazine? Great interview with a great classical recordist. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name.

[LeedyGuy]

There was also a great article a while back about mic placement for stereo or large space recordings with tons of diagrams. I sorta wonder what happened to that article myself, but I haven't had the chance to go through all the tapeops!

[Devlarz]

Well unfortunately during my move I missed out on teh last 3 issues of TapeOp. I vaguely remmeber the issue regardnig the spaced pairs and diagrams...I'll have to peruse the back issues.

Anyone care to answer who may have had experience directly with this sort of project?

[Stephen B.]

Spaced omnis sound great for this type of recording, especially if the room sounds good. However, stereo spaced omnis require that the micrphones at least be the same model, hopefully even a matched pair. The varying frequency response of the two completely different microphones will result in a skewed image of the performance. A whole lot of classical recording is done with small diaphragm condensers, so don't be afraid to try those, especially if you have a pair of one of the models. I would recommend using an ORTF configuration (assuming they are cardiod). This won't be as wide and lush as spaced omnis but it will give you a solid image. ORTF is the two mics at a 110 degree angle, with the capsules 17cm apart. Of course there are also a lot of variations on that. That's where you can use those ears.

[Devlarz]

...A whole lot of classical recording is done with small diaphragm condensers, so don't be afraid to try those, especially if you have a pair of one of the models.

I guess I hadn't considered that option instead presuming that SDCs would be used, in the classical realm, more as definition mics for particular sections of the orchestra. I do have pairs of CAD 95s, AKG C535Bs, and Shure PG81s. Perhaps I'll give that a go and use single LDC in omni...oh the choices, all part of the fun.

[joelpatterson]

I've been doing this kinda thing for what seems like ageless generations, and I've settled on a ORTF pair (of anything, really) about ten feet behind and five feet above the conductor's head, a pair of something else widely spaced out to the sides... and if it really needs it, a pair behind the orchestra (helps with detail on the guys in the back.) That's it, generally, six mics. I usually end up panning each set hard left/right.

Pre's are the big thing, here, the cleaner and deeper the pre's, the more lifelike the sound, and the game here is all about capturing how it "really" sounds--an abstraction, in any case, but clean and quiet pre's create special illusion of "reality," and that's really what it's all about.

[@?,*???&?]

I just did some work with a local Symphony as well. Treat the venue with the importance of a first violinist. The sound of the venue should come into play. Learn what critical distance is and be aware that whatever ambience you capture, needs to maintain clarity of the direct signal while enhancing, not cluttering it.

The entire DSO recently used Thunder Audio at the Greenfield Village July 4th concert. EVERY instrument had a wireless mic and the soundguy had to mix the orchestra by hand.

Keep in mind, the DSO will be used to being babied IMMENSELY!!!

[joelpatterson]

Um... yeah, classical people can be real fruitcakes at times, but at heart all the ones I've known have been pretty down-to-earth.

The way I look at it, right or wrong... I'm sure someone will correct me... an orchestra is striving to make a single sound, and if you put an array of mics at the outer edges of that sound... as many or as few as you want to... you will capture that sound.

The idea of everyone having their own clip-on mic is like a Japanese horror movie to me... technology gone mad.

[Stephen B.]

The idea of everyone having their own clip-on mic is like a Japanese horror movie to me... technology gone mad.

Agreed.

[Devlarz]

Thank you all for the assistance and methods of approach. I can certainly understand all the points of view, though I was unaware that the DSO as a whole are largely considered "babies". However if this does come trough then I think it would be wise of me not to go in with any preconceived notion of what they are like as a whole or individually.

I may be able to get my hands on another CAD E200 and API preamps so that would probably be my starting point.

[trumpetgunk]

I did the recordings for a major NYC music conservatory for three years. For the orchestra, we mainly used three Schoeps in a Decca tree arrangement hanging from the ceiling a little bit above and behind the conductor's head. It's already been mentioned, but what made the biggest difference in the recordings were the microphone preamps used. We had 8 channels of John Hardy preamps that were quieter when A/B'd with the 8 channel Millenia HV-3D we had and were amazingly quieter than the 8 channel True Precision preamp we had. For a quick reference, the Hardy's go for $1000 a channel.

Basically, you have to think of a classical recording as an "audiophile" recording. You need to find the cleanest, clearest possible signal chain at every stage from your electrical supply on up. It's a very expensive part of the recording industry that is mostly dominated by engineers who have been around for years and have carefully stockpiled the best equipment they can get their hands on. Nothing personal but your microphone collection doesn't stack up in the classical world. Classical musicians all know the names "Neumann" and "Schoeps" and "Matched Pair". Additionally, you can't "balk" in front of classical musicians. Odds on, they've done a recording before and know exactly what they think works. If can't quickly convince them that your way works and you stutter, it will be a long and painful session.

IMHO, you should try a different method to get some experience. First, find out who records the orchestra when they perform in the hall. Talk to this person and then volunteer your time to be part of a session. I volunteered at Mechanic's Hall in Worcester, MA (a building that is praised for its acoustics) and it was a great introduction to the world of classical recording. Learn from the people who have dones this before you. Good luck!

[Devlarz]

Thank you for the advice Trumpetgunk. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to shadowing their in-house or other classical engineers. Though in the event that I was misinterpretted I have no intention to try to approach them saying, "Hey there I'm an engineer and I know everything there is to know so this is where you fall about yourselves trying to hire me." I simply want the chance to cut my teeth, no payment more than the opportunity to use them as my source. I want the self education.

[John Hardy]

For a quick reference, the Hardy's go for $1000 a channel.

A 4-channel M-1 with all the options is considerably less than $3000, closer to $700 a channel.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

[Piotr]

Don't be afraid to approach the local music student population, or to set your sights on a more grassroots scene. In the long run, everyone knows each other in the classical world. So you're likely to have lifelong clients if you can ingratiate yourself with other career lifers...