normalling gear to inserts...

[snuffinthepunk]

so we were talkin at the studio tonight and one of the assistants who has been there for a while said that even if the insert is not engaged, signal will still flow any gear that is hardwired to it. I thought if the insert wasn't engaged, it was bypassed. what's the deal 'eh? Thanks. (oh yeah, and if it matters, the console we were talkin about is an api legacy plus. there are relays behind the patchbay that activate when you hit the insert in button)

J

[parlormusic]

If it is an insert, then he may be correct. The insert sends/returns a signal. When you "engage" the insert, you are simply sending the insert signal to the FX channel and then to the mix bus where you can hear it. Or maybe I'm blowing smoke out my nether region!

[Roboburger]

He's correct for that board. There's bunches of boards like that, and it's an expensive enough deal circuitry-wise that you won't see the feature on Mackie, Behringer, and other lower end consoles. I can't tell you how many times I have inserted something at a club that uses a high end Yammy or Crest console and futzed with the settings for a few seconds, while watching the lights and needles move on the insert device, but noticing that the sound isn't changing before having that Butthead moment- "...Oh yeah... Gotta actually insert the insert."

As you heard, a relay is used to remove the device from the signal chain (True Bypass) until you press the button, which means a few bucks per channel added to the base cost. I dunno, but I would guess that somebody could make a FET switch based design, which might bring the cost down. I'm not amongst the circuitry masters that post here.

[Mane1234]

So on my board a Soundcraft 600 which has no insert button, if I have the inserts connected to my patchbay then they are running signal to the patchbay even if I don't have any thing patched like a compressor on the other end? I'm guessing it would be best to leave all insert cables out of the the insert jacks unless they're going to be used....?

[parlormusic]

So on my board a Soundcraft 600 which has no insert button, if I have the inserts connected to my patchbay then they are running signal to the patchbay even if I don't have any thing patched like a compressor on the other end? I'm guessing it would be best to leave all insert cables out of the the insert jacks unless they're going to be used....?

Yes, that is correct. Once you plug into your board's insert jack, the signal is active. There is a remedy though...

If you want to run your inserts to a patch bay, you need to have the bay normalled and an insert y-cable plugged in to the back connecting the "from" and "to" points. Connect this y-cable to your board insert jack with a balanced cable. This will allow the signal to simply pass through the bay and return to the board without effects etc. It's really extending the board's insert jack out to your bay. When you plug into the front of the bay with an effects unit or whatever, the "normalled" path is broken and the signal is sent to your effects before being returned to the board.

[Roboburger]

So on my board a Soundcraft 600 which has no insert button, if I have the inserts connected to my patchbay then they are running signal to the patchbay even if I don't have any thing patched like a compressor on the other end? I'm guessing it would be best to leave all insert cables out of the the insert jacks unless they're going to be used....?

yes, the signal is going outside your board, to the patchbay, and then back. this is why the insert cabling to the patchbay has a critical need for good shielding and an excellent connections everywhere. Over 24 channels the noise from CRTs, etc. can really add up, and clairity in high frequencies can suffer too, so I've been told- I've not heard a difference in my little rig using a dozen or so inserts- but there must be a reason why big studios with 60+insert cables going from a board to a rack insist on using Monster/Mogami/etc. (I'd bet that my above 12k has been shot from 10+ years as a live guy. I've never been to an ear doc to test.)

Sure, you can not use a patchbay if you don't mind reaching around to the back of your board. in larger studios, this is not always practical, and it looks like shit to do this in front of clients who want to see a smoothly operating studio. If your clients are also recording geeks/or punk rock and don't give a shit, go for it.

and btw, I'm a 600 user, too!

[snuffinthepunk]

oh okay, i always thought that on all boards the insert button was like a relay itself, switching the flow when engaged to head out to the gear, but when not engaged all the insert circuitry was bypassed. good to know information, thanks!

[Roboburger]

On boards with an insert switch, I am 99.99% sure that the signal going to the insert is buffered, and always going out to the Insert Send leads, be they balanced or unbalanced. I guess if the Insert Sends are Balanced, they they are definetly buffered for output, as I can't imagine any board using a balanced signal internally. Anyone care to shoot that down? Wouldn't that be a bitch to make an EQ for? And not really necessary?

Anyway, then the signal that returns from the Insert Return leads is kept out of the circuit by a relay-deal, and the bypassed signal is taken from before the buffering, thus the "true bypass" tag.