An interesting question: why is Vintage stuff so cool?

[???????]

I have 10 minutes to kill before I gotta rush off so I figured i'd ask this burning question. It's bound to get some good responses. I'm a self confessed old-shit junky as far as music stuff is concerned anyway, and I've spent a fair amount of time postulating and wondering why I think this shit is so much cooler?

Some possibilities:

1. The older gear is usually more limited, which sparks our creativity.

2. The older gear is ubiquitous in the music we know and love, so we (sub)consciously crave those sounds because they make us happy.

3. The cool old 'vibe' of the stuff inspires us to be more creative or inspired

4. They actually made 'em better back then. Cleaner wood due to less pollution and better-made electronic components (interleaved transformers, paper/oil capacitors, etc).

5. The materials 'learn' how to sound good over time. Wood gets used to vibrating and becomes more supple, capacitor dialectrics 'form' a path of least resistance for electrons, etc.

6. The stuff wears out and produces little sonic imperfections, or has imperfections in design when it wasn't quite figured out yet, that make the stuff sound less consistent and more varied. Magnets in pickups lose some of their magnetism. Wood gets dents in it. Finishes get rubbed off. Oscillators in that mini-moog weren't synced. Etc etc etc...

7. The ghosts of everyone that has used the stuff and all of the music that was made with it remains in it, to a degree.

8. The stuff was made one-at-a-time and the process was less universalized, making each piece more unique than we are accustomed to today. It is really the 'uniqueness' that we crave.

etc etc etc...

please add yours or debate the above!!

[mjau]

Very cool topic for discussion...
In my own experience, I know for a fact that reason #2 caused in me an obsession with the re-released 610 mic pre. And when I heard the re-release...eh, disappointing. But still, the principle is true.

I've got a couple of older things - nothing rare, and questionably even "vintage" - and my fascination with them is simply that they are different, and they have a history that I can somehow wiggle into, and that they look cool in the rack to people who don't know any better (i.e., had a guy over to record some of his demo's, and he was fascinated with the VU meter in my Altec 1592b).

[Randy]

The first thing I think of when I hear the words "vintage gear" is a song by the Gang of Four, "I found that essence rare." If it is scarce and you have unlimited funds, you can own a piece of history. To hell with whether it sounds good.

Of course, that was until I played a Fender Broadcaster. Mofo sang like a siren.

On the other hand, I have a '68 Bassman with the much loved/hated AB165 circuit and it was noisy and flaccid. I got it for pretty cheap and it wasn't a true "piece of history" so I figured I could go in there and trouble shoot. I ended up replacing all the caps (some leakers) and resistors (some were open some were closed), and it is amazing. Bell tone and smooth lovely distortion. Quiet when not being played.

The people who made the classic tunes back in the day were playing with new amps and new guitars. If you want those tones, you need to either play with rebuilt versions of those old tools, or current ones that can get close. The half-broken down amp and guitar may have a sweet sound, but don't be thinking it's exactly what Pete Townsend played back in 1968.

my humble, yet not humbly stated, two cents.

[mjau]

but don't be thinking it's exactly what Pete Townsend played back in 1968.

Or the drugs you can get now are the same things Pete T. was taking in '68.

[Randy]

but don't be thinking it's exactly what Pete Townsend played back in 1968.

Or the drugs you can get now are the same things Pete T. was taking in '68.

Do they even make window pane anymore?

There has to be a vintage drug recipe website out there somewhere. A different form of DIY electronics.

Not to go too tangential on this thread, but I just had a thought, DIY electro-shock therapy! I'd betcha people would pay top dollar for a vintage 1960s EST machine. You probably don't have to worry about polarity or open caps on one of those.

[syrupcore]

fletcher said it was his fault in tape op.

[fromthecurve]

Kind of related to your #4, but sometimes it's a great deal! As long as you don't go for the "collectible" stuff. I got my drum kit ('65 Sonors) for $600, a '62 Gibson 125T for $500, an SPX-90 for $80 ... this kind of $ wouldn't go far buying new.

[emrr]

I like using lots of antique preamps becuase they evoke the sound of the classic old records I like. New gear doesn't do that. So, maybe it's sentimentality to a degree.

I like the purer midrange quality I find with many old pieces.

I like the lack of high frequency harmonic garbage in good old gear, which I find presented by many new designs, and many plug-in processors. Treble is over-rated anyway. Sure, it's exciting at first, then it just hurts.

I like the gel factor that less stiff power supplies in old gear give to bass frequencies. I'm not doing hip-hop records. I'm doing rock and pop records. 30 Hz is over-rated.

I like the organic factor present in the sound of some old gear. In comparison, plug-ins sound like an overlay with a predictable repeating quality.

I like the smooth and more useful distortion of some old circuit designs. You know, when it happens by accident, and adds that something special that's better, rather than "time for a retake".

I like the fact that there's plenty of very cheap old gear that works just great with a re-cap and general service check up. Saves me thousands every year.

Of course there's plenty of bad old gear, so one has to be discriminating, as with anything.

[???????]

there are some good points here...

I'll add another one. Servicability. When dealing with anything electronic, those old things are like an old chevy.

Sure, the new imported car might run 200,000 miles before it needs a tune up, but when it does, watch out! You're going to have to pull damn near everything OUT of the car just to get to the tiny part that needs replacing, and then it might be some proprietary thing that's expensive and it becomes time to just scrap the car and buy a new one...

But the old chevy, you pop the hood and 9 times out of 10 the thing that's wrong is visible in plain sight. You go down to the local auto parts shop and buy the part you need for 5 bucks, have plenty of room under the hood to work, and you're back up and running in an afternoon!

I work on lots of old Fender amps and they're like this. They are designed to be repaired! The new products (even new fender amps) are designed to be replaced. It's a dfferent philosophy. In the old days, they made stuff so that if it came back, they could throw it up on the bench and troubleshoot it really easily. Nowadays, they make it so that the parts are so cheap, that when it comes back they just replace the whole circuit board and call it a day. This approach will be a major pain in your ass if something goes wrong at the worst possible time, etc.

So it's not just that the old pieces were built to last. It's that they were built to be MAINTAINED instead of chucked out with the garbage. This is worth good money to me, I don't know about you guys.

[hammertime]

I don't own a guitar that's older than 20 years or so, but they're all based on guitars that are much older. I just bought a copy of a Selmer Macafferi guitar (the one Django Reinhardt made famous), I think it's a Gitane DG 500 or something like that, made in China, that kicks butt. I could have bought a real Selmer for something like 20 grand, if I sold everything I own. I bought a National Resophonics Tricone in 2001 or so, and it's the best tricone I've ever played. I think I paid around 2 grand, and if I shopped around for a classic 1930 model, I think I'd pay about 10 times that. My tele's and strats -- I've owned for 15 years or so -- everybody always try's to get me to play their pre-cbs guitars, and honestly, I like mine better. Granted, the designs are old on all of my guitars, but they were made fairly recently, and I'm very happy with all of them, and most of them have truss rods and stuff that older gear didn't have. I think amps are a different matter. Most of the good newish amps I've heard cost alot of money (Kendrick, Matchless, etc). I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find an amp being made that's as good or better than older ones -- you just aren't going to find it at guitar center. Personally, I hope these guys in China start making amps as good as some of the guitars they're making.

[AudioHog]

BIG VU Meters and COOL Jeweled power indicator lights!

hehe

[Mane1234]

Great topic....Like it was said, the music that I grew up listening to came from the 70's and 80's. My board is a mid 80's Soundcraft which I've almost outgrown and I'll upgrade next year but I won't buy anything new and I'll never get rid of that board. It sounds like rock and roll to me. I have 4 channels of Urei compressors and they just rock. I love the idea that you mentioned about the ghosts of others who have used the equipment before me. Maybe whoever owned my stuff before me did some cool stuff with it and that's why I like it so much. I've noticed that I don't seem to be able to find the same sonic quality in PTs that I find on my board which is why I can't wait to start mixing outside the box. I think there's lots of new great stuff out there but I will always have as much vintage stuff that I can afford to buy.

[AGCurry]

Because it's stuff I wanted when I was young and it was new. I couldn't afford it then but I can now.

[apropos of nothing]

There's a lot to be said for analog signal paths. That's why I got a Moog lowpass filter and ringmod. Its the classic shit but manufactured recently.

[mingus2112]

I think that a lot of times, things go down in quality because the technology PEAKS. I mean. . .think about guitars. . .they got it RIGHT in the '50s and the '60s. There was no "up" to go. So the next step was "how can we make more of these for cheaper?" Don't forget. . .innovation isn't just creativity. They were being innovative by moving factories to Japan. . .then Korea. . .then China. . .then Indonesia! The product suffers in these situations. What you're left with is a memory of a better time when Guitars were all built great (even out of the sears catalog) and mic preamps were all perfect (because there was no real mass market for them and they were built to order for studios).

It's funny how ten years ago, old technology was old technology. Right into the beginning of the '80s we were making little improvements. Old gear was just old gear. People didn't realize that it was being made cheaper. . .and. . .in fact. . .it wasn't being made THAT MUCH cheaper. . .YET.

Then we get into the '90s. Digital is just taking off. YES!! Recording/Sound technology is moving forward! Buy new stuff! All of the old "junk" could be found in piles for next to nothing.

About ten years ago people started to wise up a little and realize we got wrapped up in advancement. We all wanted the old gear back and were willing to pay.

I think it's a combination of the fact that the gear was RIGHT before. . .and maybe we screwed it up by trying to improve something. . .and nostalgia. (I paid $650 to replace a twin reverb amp that I bought at a garage sale years earlier for $200. . .and i NEVER use it)

One more argument is the actual age of sound equipment. I don't believe in "just because it's old it sounds good." Sometimes guitar pickups lose magnetism and sound great. Sometimes they sound like ass. Sometimes old tubes sound sweet and smooth. . .sometimes they're a noisy mess.

That's just my $.02. . .well. . .maybe $50. LOL

-James