A question of ethics

[shakestheclown]

I guess it's not really a question anymore because I've already made my decision.

I'm pretty green here....I have never produced a record. I've done a few songshere and there or arranged vocals or whatever but I've never produced a record. I have musical skills and am confident that I can do an excellent job. That being said I give you the following story.

I was approached to produce a record, and have been working with the artist for the last week or so. I offered to record everything here in my home studio giving everyone the opportunity to be commfortable and unhurried. I explained upfront that I was not going to get the quality sonuds that could be achieved in a proper studio. So he wants to go to a studio. That's fine I have no problems there. When it came to money I didn't ask for much. With my dedication about $2 an hour...yes 2...not 20 (recording the demos, Playing all the instruments on the demos,sitting in on rehearsals ect.).

Yesterday he tells me that after booking studio time and paying mastering costs and duplication, there iwill be nothing left in the budget for me. So I wished him good luck with his album.

Maybe I kinda felt bad for the guy. All he knows is the small scope of his songs. Just a singer/songwriter type...talented surely but lacks vision for the overall picture. He will not be happy wth his final product without some direction.

I record music and play music because I like music. I like talented people and want to see them succed. I'm not wirking wth big time folks so there isn't any big time money. That's why I want to do this...to help the little guy . I know too many people that spent too much money on projects they aren't happy with.

.....So I called him back.

Having no track record I decided to do it anyway. Foolish mistake? Maybe. Finally a project to earn me some street cred? Certainly. But I guess I just want to help the guy.

Discuss...

[scott anthony]

I think it is OK to try and stay involved. Negotiate proper credit up front and make sure the studio he has hired knows that he is bringing in a producer. Otherwise, you may show up at the session and get the cold shoulder from the house engineer. Oh yeah, nobody needs to know you are working for free except you and the artist...

[@?,*???&?]

Having worked as an engineer in 30+ studios, I also produce records.

When I budget a record, I usually put together 3. They go from less $$$ (in the box type recordings) to more $$$ (in a real studio) and let the artist choose.

I can make a record that is only a slight percentage different in the box as opposed to in a real studio, but there are certain modes of working that are intrinsic to both.

Sounds like you need to start producing to trust yourself more.

People need to realize that if you know your Mackie in and out, likely you could futz around with a larger console and achieve the same result- but you'd need to lean pretty heavily on the house assistant. Hopefully, they'll be open and willing to work with you and teach you some things.

[shakestheclown]

I should point out that this guy has never made a real record...he has however spent money on acoustic cds that he did not like...

I should point out that I'm pretty comfortable and confident in almost any room with any gear. But that's just gear and signal flow. The trickery is in the mic placement and phase conherency. Anyway..I might end up doing alot of engineering at the studio. I hope not, I already have too much on my plate.

As far as the budget is concerned I probably gave him every option available from spending all the money on a studio to just tracking drums there...OD's at my place. Cutting everything there and mixing at my place....bla bla bla...He's pretty wishy washy and I think he's concerned that since I don't have a badass live room and my mic locker is only worth 4 digits that he wasn't going to get the sounds that he wants (not that he knows what he wants...which is why he wanted me to work on the deal)

Whatever...I think I'm just trying to convince myself that I'm not making a bigass mistake.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i think you know what you're doing. i've done loads of stuff for free over the years. i've also told people to take a hike when they didn't want to pay whatever meager fee i was asking for. it all depends on the situation i think. some people are friends and i'm happy to help them out, i love their tunes, and i wouldn't take money from them if they offered. other folks i say sure i'll do it for xxx dollars and they hem and haw and i find it insulting. yunno, if you can't come up with literally a couple hundred bucks between you and your bandmates then see ya.

if you don't necessarily need the money and you like the guy and his tunes, then i think it's really just a question of time. do you think its the sort of project that's gonna drag on and on? you say the guy is kinda wishy washy...do you think he will respond well to your giving him direction, or will it get tense really easily and make the whole thing become a drag? do you think he will be super fussy about mixes and forever changing his mind about trivial stuff and making you redo them?

if the answer to all that is 'no, i think it'll actually be pretty cool and fun' and you can afford to do it for free then yeah go for it. you get to work at a different place than your own, always a good learning experience and you might make some good contacts there. and it sounds like you'd be very involved creatively, which is always cool.

on the other hand (i'm a gemini, that's our favorite phrase) if he's got the money to pay for a studio and to pay for mastering and pressing up a cd, that cheap fucker has money to pay you for all the hard work you're prepared to do for him.

so, yeah, i dunno. sorry man. all that typing for nothing...

[joelpatterson]

Wait--you offered to record some tracks in your home studio that "wouldn't sound so great" or something?

And then you say "he won't be happy without some direction"?

Hate to be cruel, but it sounds like including you out is a great first step.

[shakestheclown]

Well, as far as sounding not so great, all I mean is that I don't have the tuned room, super nice pres and super high quality mics that a studio is able to offer.

And no, I don't think he'll be very happy without some direction because he can't really see the big picture. He's a singer songwriter and has only played his songs with himself and his acoustic guitar. Never played with a rythm section or anything but he wants that "real commercial sound" and doesn't know how to get it.

Having very little experience with producing a whole record I don't know that you're far from the truth Joel.

[shakestheclown]

BTW I think it should be standard forum policy not to be a shithead unless you know what your'e talking about.

[orbb]

BTW I think it should be standard forum policy not to be a shithead unless you know what your'e talking about.

I'm sorry, but that would shut down most discourse on the Internet.

[dynomike]

I dunno..

Perhaps you know (or think... is there a difference internally?) that you can make it better. Apparently though, throughout the process of you working with the artist preparing, etc, the artist didn't get this same impression. So basically what ends up happening is that you might be trying to exert control where its not necessarily wanted.. from you, at least, for whatever (perhaps unfounded) reason.

The guy sounds like he's decided to take the 'high road' and for some reason has also decided that you shouldn't be a part of it. You not having experience would be an excellent reason for this decision. You trying to convince him to record at your (inferior) home studio, with admittedly less skills/experience would be another good reason. So, you didn't really wear "high road producer" hat from day one, and so he doesn't see you that way now.

I guess I'm with Joel / bottom half of morespaceecho's post.. sounds like the artist has cut you out, it sounds like money is not REALLY the problem. Calling them back to say "oh , well, okay, i'll do it for free!" may be boxing the artist into the uncomfortable corner where they have to either have you around when they don't want your input (again, i don't know! hypothetical) or where they have to tell you straight up the money is NOT the problem, they just don't want your help. Kind of like calling a girl back after she dumped you with a new plan to make the relationship work.

I may not know what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to be a 'shithead' either.

[shakestheclown]

Well, my shithead comment wasn't very nice but it seemed like maybe he didn't read my post too well. I'm am not afraid of constructive criticism.

The guy seemed relieved when I called him back that day and said Something along the lines of he was excited because he wasn't sure he was going to be able to pull it off. He called today and wanted to continue working on the demos so I guess he wants me around...

However we have yet to really talk about the control issue. And it's not even about control, I don't care if I have much say in what instruments are played or in what style as long as it's cohesive in the end and he likes it.

My stance is that I know he doesn't know how to make a record..That's what I believe I am here for.

He'll be coming over to hear the first of the more "finished" demos in a couple of days. After he hears them I will try to broach the "Exactly how much input do you want from me" conversation.

Any ideas on how to make things go smoother would be helpful.

[snuffinthepunk]

If he's shellin out the bucks for a studio with an engineer that can get good sounds, you probably don't have much to worry about concerning mic placement, so no worries with that man. And as far as asking him about how much input he wants, if he's small time and what not, what would be wrong with askin him exactly what he wants out of you? what he thinks a "producer" is? to me a producer is more of a "creative" influence than a technical one, although having the technical skills is a plus...and even if you have basic technical skills, you could tell the engineer (if he is good) what you want and he/she will be able to make it happen if they can do so with their gear/rooms. Doin it for free? Well, if you can afford to, why not? It could be fun! If you want to be a producer, I imagine that the more albums you have under your belt that say "produced by *insert your name here*" the better. You just might end up makin a name for yourself. If it ends up sucking, though, don't put your name on it....=P

[shakestheclown]

Well, I made some demos from some tracks that he cut here. Acoustic guitar and vox. Played all instruments and invented all the elements.

He liked it and will be coming over tomorrow to record more songs for me to work with. I will then talk with him more about "production"

We have already kindof gone through some of it...I explained my view that, to me, the main job of a producer is to get the record done quickly efficently and under budget. Make technical and creative decisions and most importantly work with the artist to achieve the vision of the project.

Produce

# bring forth or yield; "The tree would not produce fruit"
# create or manufacture a man-made product; "We produce more cars than we can sell"; "The company has been making toys for two centuries"
# cause to happen, occur or exist; "This procedure produces a curious effect"; "The new law gave rise to many complaints"; "These chemicals produce a noxious vapor"; "the new President must bring about a change in the health care system"
# bring out for display; "The proud father produced many pictures of his baby"; "The accused brought forth a letter in court that he claims exonerates him"
# bring onto the market or release; "produce a movie"; "bring out a book"; "produce a new play"

I will produce a cohesive project with respect to the vision of the artist and myself.