Seeking OTB enthusiasts opinions...

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2121TrumbullAve
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Seeking OTB enthusiasts opinions...

Post by 2121TrumbullAve » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:49 am

Hello -

I've always let Sonar do my summing. I'm considering trying it OTB today, and am wondering if it's even worth it, based on the gear I have.

I have an RME fireface with 8 outs, a Mackie 1604 console, and nothing to master to, so I'd have to round trip it all back into Sonar. With only 8 outs and a 20 track tune it'll have to be stems.

Regarding drums, should I assign each drum to 1 stereo output of the interface, or instead bounce them within Sonar to a stereo track? (I suspect the former)...

Since I'll really be mixing 8 subgroups in analog, and on a low end console, and then re-converting, will I even notice a difference in sound?

Thanks in advance,

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Post by Mark Alan Miller » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:24 am

You might like it. You might not. The Mackie isn't a bad sounding box. Try it!

Subgroup the drums to one stereo out, to maintain flexibility. IF you submix down to a track, and want to make a change, you'll have to re=print that submix again...
4 stereo "stems" is a great way to go.

Do you really like the sound of those converters? I suspect that'll have a bearing on the sound almost more that the Mackie will...

Make sure your gain-staging is solid.

In any event, you'll likely hear some kind of difference. Whether it's a good difference... well, that'll be up to you to decide.
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2121TrumbullAve
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I gave it a shot

Post by 2121TrumbullAve » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:31 pm

Well, I have no conclusive opinion, after comparing ITB mix and OTB mix. There is a difference like Mark said there would likely be, but I'm not sure it's exactly an upgrade. If pressed for a description, I would say that the outboard mix has a slightly more pleasant depth to it, and is a tad brighter. I'm just not sure it's worth the hassle for a minute difference, when I could continue to hone my mic placement skills and post prod. skills to result in larger improvments at this point.

I suspect nobody else replied because this is a tired old subject, and just needs to be tried and evaluated.
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Post by drewbass » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:38 pm

i dont think its tired and old. its something new for me daily. i've been going through a folcrom for over a year. i do a mix in the mac, get everything roughly balanced with some hpf's then go out.
..

i think it takes some critical thinking and hearing on your behalf to decide with what you are using it might not be worth it at this point. right on. esp the part about going back to mic placement.

drew

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Post by T-rex » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:15 am

It's been talked about, but you really do have to try it for yourself, and you did so that is good.

Personally doing a mix in the computer and then going out to my cheap Tascam with everything on the console at unity, I found pretty much what you did. There was very minimal difference and in fact, the next day I could barely pick the two mixes apart from each other. There was a little bit more air out of the box. BUT, when I left everything at unity in my DAW and actually mixed on the console, then that made a huge difference. Even with using mostly effects and plug ins in the box and a few outboard comps. I have inexpensive convertors, but 16 channels of them, so I didn't have to submix very much ITB. It was amazing how I could hear the slightest fader or EQ move on the console compared to having to move a fader or EQ ITB a couple of db's to hear the same difference. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by ckeene » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:42 am

This is sort of what I'm doing right now. I'm subbing drums, guitars and vox ITB, then running L-R of the subs (plus other individual tracks like bass and keys) to my mixer, where I'm applying compression and EQ, then mixing back into SONAR. It's a sort of hybrid ITB/OTB technique that gives me a reasonably recallable mix with the immediacy of having an analog control surface and the ease of patching in external effects.

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Post by 2121TrumbullAve » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:34 am

hey T-rex -

do you record your analog mix back into Sonar on 1 stereo track, then retreive it out of the audio data folder?

I also wonder how much a difference it would make doing a real time burn to CD from the anaolg desk as well...
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Post by ckeene » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:18 am

2121TrumbullAve wrote:hey T-rex -

do you record your analog mix back into Sonar on 1 stereo track, then retreive it out of the audio data folder?
That's what I do.

How do you do a real-time CD burn? Would that be at all better?

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Post by 2121TrumbullAve » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:22 am

there are a few decks on the market like Alesis' Masterlink and HHB that burn disks of the live audio that is input to them - they behave like a tape deck would, and you do not have to make your mix a file before burning it.

many folks swear by this method - you are at the mercy of the units converters here as well.
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Post by ckeene » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:37 am

Oh, gotcha. Are people still using those masterlinks if there's a perfectly good computer around, though? My thought is just keep that mixdowns in the box, unless of course you're going to tape.

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Post by kayagum » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:47 am

Some like the Masterlinks because they like the A/D conversion.

Some don't like Masterlinks because of the proprietary OS.

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Post by Mane1234 » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:23 pm

I'm getting my board back out of the shop next week and I can't wait to try an OTB mix. Never done one before. Anyone know of a way to sync my TSR 8 reel to reel to ProTools? I'd never go straight to digital again if I could do that. Guess I'd have stripe a track in timecode? Man, I need a bigger machine.

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Re: Seeking OTB Enthusiasts Opinions......

Post by Foxrun » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:05 am

I'm sold on OTB mixing. I'm running a pair of digi 192 I/0 with D/A cards. 16 of the converters go to a Phoenix nicerizer 16. I have eight inserts set up for outboard and the rest of the outs are used for sends to effects units. I also will use plug-ins and automation in Pro Tools. The output of the Nicerizer is routed to a bus compressor and then into the A/D of a HEDD 192 into a digi 002 sync'd to the TDM system by midi time code. Output of the 002 is spdif to an Avocet.

This setup makes it easy to run stems and everything stays sync'd.

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Post by chris harris » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:21 am

you can't just do your mix ITB and THEN stem it out and expect to hear a great improvement. You need to create your stems and then mix into them. Part of the benefit of OTB summing is having more headroom in your stems than you would have cramming everything ITB into one stereo out.

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Post by Mark Alan Miller » Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:31 am

subatomic pieces wrote:you can't just do your mix ITB and THEN stem it out and expect to hear a great improvement. You need to create your stems and then mix into them. Part of the benefit of OTB summing is having more headroom in your stems than you would have cramming everything ITB into one stereo out.
Partially true! That is, one could simple do the mix ITB and then send it through a console/summing matrix and at least get the benefit of the analog summing and sound of the circuits, but no, one wouldn't by the nature of that specific process, nessesarily get the benefit of the headroom. Then again, you could argue that if the submixes were properly gain staged to take advantage of the ITB summing busses dynamic range, then they would be using the dynamic range of the D/A converters to their fullest, and by default would then be using the dynamic range of the inputs on the analog system to their fullest...

Of course, the sooner one can be mixing through the actual signal chain, the more one will mix 'into' the sound of said chain. So earlier is better in that regard. Just like putting a compressor across a 2-mix, the sooner one applies the processing during mix, the better that processing will be utilised.
Mane1234 wrote:I'm getting my board back out of the shop next week and I can't wait to try an OTB mix. Never done one before. Anyone know of a way to sync my TSR 8 reel to reel to ProTools? I'd never go straight to digital again if I could do that. Guess I'd have stripe a track in timecode? Man, I need a bigger machine.
Yep - stripe a track with SMPTE. Then somehow get SMPTE to MTC converted to make PT slave to it. You'll likely have issues with wow and flutter affecting the stability of the SMPTE, and therefore the stability of the MTC. Sometimes digital devices don't like to chase code that's wobbly like that. What I do (and you'll need to figure a way to get word clock into your PT rig to do this) is send the SMPTE to a box that can varispeed word clock to incoming SMPTE (Alesis AI-2) and then send the SMPTE (as MTC) and the word clock to PT (I get word clock to PT by sending the word clock to my TC Finalizer, then send the S/PDIF out to the coaxial in of PT, setting PT's clock to 'external'. I use the Finalizer as my A/D for PT anyway, so this is perfect for me.)
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