mic choices for horns

[hilltop studios]

hello everyone...I have an upcoming session that will involve 3 horn players in addition to your basic 3 piece (drums, bass & guitar) setup. The plan is to track all the rythm instruments first then overdub the horns. Mic's and pre's available to me: Beyer m160, m88, m201, m422... Senn 421(2), 441, e602... Shure ksm27(2) ,sm57's...Akg 414b-uls c391b(2)...Aud/Tec atm25 and atm31(2). Pre's are my Tascam m2600mk11 console and a Hamptone Jfet. I would probably start off with the m160 on trumpet and the 441 on sax both using the Hamptone. I wasn't sure what I would try first on t-bone, maybe the m88 ?? Suggestions and ideas would be much appreciated. I plan to record each horn to a seperate track(the players will play together) so we can adjust the blend a bit at mix time. I should also mention that everything is being tracked to tape, half inch 16 track. Thanks in advance, Dave

[AGCurry]

I'd say you're on the right track.

My approach would depend on the function of the horn parts themselves: Will any of them be soloing, or is a "horn section?" If it's "horn section," I might go for a room sound with a stereo pair.

[Professor]

I don't mean to sound like a dick or anything, but try listening to the instruments when they come in and then picking a mic that would suit them.
I know that's not always an option, but that's really the approach to take. Not all trumpets sound the same, and if the guy shows up with some older de-lacquered deal or a bright silver horn or a gold-brushed Monette you might reach for different mics. Same with the sax, do you know if it's alto or tenor?

Now that said, I have a few favorites, or simple defaults if I have to be set up before the group arrives, or if I'm just tracking a whole group like our big band.
If I can't pick something specific for the horn then here are a few of my defaults - though I don't have any of the beyers that make up a big part of your collection.
For a solo trumpet (jazz/rock/etc) I'll usually grab a Shure SM-7 or a pair of large ribbons (AEA or TapeOp) for a classical or more of a room sound. But every time I've tried a 421 on a trumpet, it's made it sound like an alto sax.
So, for alto sax I'll default to a Senn. 421 or a smaller ribbon like an RCA 74.
For tenor sax, I think the 421 works, but doesn't get that body that the tenor should have so I usually reach for a larger dynamic, usually the RE-20, or maybe I'll go with a large ribbon.
For trombone, large ribbons are definitely where it's at, but for a trombone solo I might reach for an SM-7 and for section stuff, a mic you might use on kick like an RE-20 or even Beta 52 can be nice.

You could supplement with a room pair if they're playing as a section, but you won't have the ability to balance the section if you have say a trumpet that over plays and a trombone that is kinda weak (though how often are horns unable to balance themselves?)

-Jeremy

[hilltop studios]

Thanks AG Curry and Jeremy for responding. Yes as always I'll let my ears be the guide once I hear the players As far as I know they will be playing as a group, I don't believe they plan any solos. The sax is a tenor so I will probably start off with my Senn md441 on that and see how it sounds. I also thought about trying one of my kik mic's on t-bone however they are a little scooped response wise so that might not work. As far as a stereo room pair goes I probably won't have enough tracks left at that time to do both individual and a stereo pair. I thought it might be more important to do individual tracks and be able to tweak the blend somewhat when it's time to mix. These are pretty young players but if their natural room blend is happening I could certainly just do a stereo pair. Thanks again ! Dave

[river]

If I could chime in with a recommend for mic placement.......about 18-24" from the bell of the horn. Is your room live? What's your floor material? Having some air and reflective surfaces really help make horn tracks sound natural. Have fun with it!

[A.David.MacKinnon]

If the room is good I use a stereo pair in front of the section and two spaced ribbons on either end of the section.

[Professor]

Wow, I feel bad for not menioning this earlier, but there is something really cool you can try because of the paricular medium on which you're recording...

Part of the reason the horns from the 70s sound as ridiculously powerful as they do is that the engineers used the tape machine speeds to artificially double the amount of air each player blew for each note.
If your machine runs at 15ips or 7.5ips, then you would track the session at the higher rate, 15ips. But when it comes time to do horn, flip the machine to 7.5ips and have the player play an octave lower than written.
They will need a lot of air because each note will double in value as well.
But, when they are done, you can simply flip the speed back up to 15ips, and BAM! all of a sudden you have screaming horn lines at the right range, and they are quite literally blowing twice as much air for each note value than they would have if you tracked at 15ips.
A great trick for horns that is purely for analog tape since digital doesn't do octave shifts in quite the same way - or at least, I've not been able to force my PT-HD rig to run 88.2 sessions at 44.1. I can make it run 44.1 at 48, or 96 at 88.2 or any similar catastrophe, but not the octave thing. Bummer.

-Jeremy

[Reverend Carter]

protools has half speed record.... never used it.

shift-command-spacebar

[AGCurry]

Wow, I feel bad for not menioning this earlier, but there is something really cool you can try because of the paricular medium on which you're recording...

Part of the reason the horns from the 70s sound as ridiculously powerful as they do is that the engineers used the tape machine speeds to artificially double the amount of air each player blew for each note.
If your machine runs at 15ips or 7.5ips, then you would track the session at the higher rate, 15ips. But when it comes time to do horn, flip the machine to 7.5ips and have the player play an octave lower than written.
They will need a lot of air because each note will double in value as well.
But, when they are done, you can simply flip the speed back up to 15ips, and BAM! all of a sudden you have screaming horn lines at the right range, and they are quite literally blowing twice as much air for each note value than they would have if you tracked at 15ips.
A great trick for horns that is purely for analog tape since digital doesn't do octave shifts in quite the same way - or at least, I've not been able to force my PT-HD rig to run 88.2 sessions at 44.1. I can make it run 44.1 at 48, or 96 at 88.2 or any similar catastrophe, but not the octave thing. Bummer.

-Jeremy

Doesn't this sound like brass Chipmunks?

[LVC_Jeff]

protools has half speed record.... never used it.

shift-command-spacebar

That is very interesting. I may have to experiment with that.

[Professor]

No shit, really?
Well there ya go - learned something new today. Thanks.
Guess that's what the damn manual is for considering it's right there in the table of contents.
Of course, it's obviously not something I've been dying to do either.

Oh, and no the horns wouldn't sound like brass chipmunks if you have them play an octave lower. But that's not always possible if the lines are already at the bottom of their range.

-Jeremy

[Roboburger]

I thought the reason for half speed recording was to have the notes hit tighter- The players could more easily do complex passages at half speed. Think of those tight, sixteenth note "Bip-bip-bip-Bee-DUP!" riffs.