Recording singer/songwriter

kinger · Post by **kinger** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:50 am

Hello All! Anyone have any tips on dealing with the phasing and bleed of recording someone playing acoustic guitar while singing? If not, does anyone have any tips on removing stubborn stains from delicate fabrics?

lobstman · Post by **lobstman** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:10 am

That's always a toughie. I've had good luck with using two figure 8 mics, using the deep side nulls to reject as much of the "other" source as possible. Alternately, monitor in mono and move the mics (probably mainly the vocal mic) around until you minimize phase problems (you should do this regardless, even with the fig. 8s). It'll sound better the less they move around, but don't mention this to them unless there's a problem- you might psych them out.

Roboburger · Post by **Roboburger** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:38 pm

This is a great place to play with Phase and see what you can do with it.

On similar level sound level items, (like a voice and an acoustic, as opposed to an acoustic and a half-stack) I find if maintian a 3:1 relative distance for each mic, bleed is acceptable and phase isn't a problem. F'rinstance: If the vocal mic is six inches from the singer, Place it so that it's at least a foot and a half from where his fingers meet the strings. Same with the guitar mic. Play with the phase of the two mics mixed mono and one way will sound more appropriate for the song than the other. Sometimes the thinner sound is more appropriate for quicker tempo songs, but that's just me.

I always take the pickup sound, and roll off everything above 500 hz, and blend that in a few dB and play with that phase, too. usually , a pickup is useless high-frequency wise, but the bottom end blended in just slightly can beef up tone a decent bit.

But remember to mix for the audience-If the music is Jack Johnson style then the typical music listener is gonna focus on the vocals, and the hard work you put into getting the guitar sound "just so" is gonna go unnoticed. So focus on the vocal first. If it's a more obscure style, then you can mix focusing on the sounds and make them unique.

Just my opinions.

kinger · Post by **kinger** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:13 am

Great advice, thanks alot for the tips!

cjogo · Post by **cjogo** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:45 pm

We always have the client re-sing the vocal track and the guitar track ~ seperate ~~ along with the original first take . Eliminating all phasing, etc .

mwingerski · Post by **mwingerski** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:10 am

I like using one mic for the job.
If you have a decent tube mic and a decent pre, then put the mic up in front of them about 3 -5 feet away from their mouth... i might put a spot mic on the gtr and also track the DI, but most of the time when I go to mix it, I just work from the one mic and add some compression (distressor in opto mode often works well to my ears)

The phase problems go away when you have only one mic. I experiment with the pattern on the mic though... I often find somewhere midway between cardioid and omni on a sweepable pattern mic works well. But it depends on the room... the crappier the room ,the less omni and the less compression you want.
my room tends to be medium crappy.

trash180 · Post by **trash180** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:42 am

I've had similar issues come up quite frequently. Singer/songwriters tend to be more comfortable playing and singing at the same time. In fact, some can't do one without the other!

I've done an XY coincident pair with a couple of condensers with some luck. 90˚ (or so) but up and down instead of left and right. Move the pair up and down for more vox or more gtr.

I've been using condenser on the guitar and a close dynamic for the vox more lately. The dynamic mics have better off axis rejection and if I get it right it'll blend nice with the vox that gets picked up by the gtr condenser. I've just been using a 57 or 58 for this usually. I'd like to try a large diaphram dynamic like a 421 or som'n tho.

side note: It's crazy how often 421s are used as vocal mics in older live concert videos?or maybe I'm just watching a lot of concerts shot in germany?

kinger · Post by **kinger** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:49 pm

All great tips; I've had the best results so far with a pair of figure eight condensers (with this particular singer). I'm sure other techniques will work better with different performers. Thanks again for everyone's input!

honkyjonk · Post by **honkyjonk** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:21 pm

I record myself pretty much most of the time doing this before giving up about half the time because I can't get the acoustic guitar out of the vocal mic enough to satisfy me.

The main problem is adding verb or delay to voice and not effecting the ac. guitar. Also, when you start overdubbing other instruments and you boost the voice you get a different mix of the guitar, one that I'm not always happy with (that is, too much of the guitar sound coming fromt the vocal mic which tends to not be in the optimum position for picking up acoustic)

Anyway, if they can stand (I don't like to very often) that makes it easier.

Otherwise, I think the hardest part is getting the guitar to be in the null of the vocal mic. I don't generally have problems keeping voice out of the guitar mic because I love so much the sound of an SM57 back behind the bridge pointing 45 degrees at the top of the guitar, so it's pretty far away from the vox.

Anyway, I guess just try to find a vocal mic that has a pretty narrow pickup patern and try to find a pleasing comprimise between a vocal that sits well and a vocal that nulls out the guitar.

peopleperson · Post by **peopleperson** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:25 pm

I really like M-S technique for this if the singer/songwriter is into playing completely live, which they usually are.

slowblue · Post by **slowblue** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:57 pm

Anyone use a little labs IBP in this situation?

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Recording singer/songwriter

Recording singer/songwriter

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