September Stick--Rhythm and Counting--Can you/Do you?

[drumsound]

Rhythm and counting

There is a thread going on right now about the Beatles using a click track. Of course it has morphed into an anti/pro click thing, but there's also been a little secondary sidetrack specifically about "Here Comes the Sun" which has some mixed meter and syncopation the some believe to be mixed meter but isn't.

I mention this because it had inspired the September Sticky.

It is a source of much annoyance to me that a good portion of musicians do not know hot to count music. They don't understand divisions, syncopation, or relationships to different sections of the same piece of music.

To again use "Here Comes the Sun" the turnaround of the song stays in 4/4 but has a syncopated rhythm where instead of accents right on the beat every other eight note the accents fall every third eight note for one and a half measures. Then in the bridge there are bars of 11/8 and 7/8, as I would interpret them, though other might think of them in other ways. I'm working completely aurally here so that how I hear them. Mr. Harrison would be the best person to ask the question of what is correct but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Indeed some of the key people in the production are still with us, but I'm pretty sure none of them is hanging out at the TOMB. In the thread mentioned, a poster referenced a book that calls the bar of 7/8 as I hear it as two bars of 2/4 followed by a bar of 3/8 and that also works mathematically. The poster implied that a metronome would not be able to be used because of this change in time signatures. Here was my reaction to that:

I was referring to the turnaround syncopation. So I went and listened to the record and figured out the bridge. I would interpret it a little differently than the music you have, but yes the time signature does change.

Now here is the rub. It would still be quite easy and useful to use a metronome. When there are shifts from 4/4 to X/8 unless otherwise noted the eight note will remain constant. Thus the metronome can instead of clicking quarter notes, it can/should click eight notes. So during 4/4 sections the metronome would be clicking 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, but during (for instance) 7/8 the clicks would be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. So in "Here Comes the Sun" using your sheet music example the metronome would be going at a constant eighth note click and counted 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 and 1 2 3. Does this make sense? I'd be happy to delve further.

**(Short diatribe here---Time signatures are NOT fractions but two numbers referencing two different things, but when typing there is no way to effectively stack them as a time signature should be expressed. In hand written correspondence I would never put the slash!)**

So I guess the discussion here is, do you know how to count and interpret music, and can you explain it to musicians who don't know if the need arises?

[cgarges]

Yes. Yes, I do.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[jmoose]

I have a moderate understanding of it all...

Enough that I can usually get the point across to some rhythmically challenged rock & roll meathead anyway!

[joeysimms]

So I guess the discussion here is, do you know how to count and interpret music, and can you explain it to musicians who don't know if the need arises?

I don't count like what you describe above (I doubt Mr. Harrison did, either..), but I can usually sing what I'm thinking/hearing and get folks on the same page as me.

[douglas baldwin]

So I guess the discussion here is, do you know how to count and interpret music, and can you explain it to musicians who don't know if the need arises?

I am a serious "counter and interpreter" of music. I'm a pro musician and guitar instructor that does some pro recording/engineering (which is to say, I get paid for my work). As an instructor, I'm getting paid for my ability to "explain it to musicians who don't know." :D If I'm recording, I find the ability to map a song in bars, beats and time markers to be absolutely essential.

Now I will get on my soapbox and opinionate vociferously.

The study of rhythm in our culture lags so far behind the study of harmony as to be laughable. I believe that the dominance of simple 4/4 rhythms in our culture is due to an inability on the part of many so-called professionals to tap their feet and play at the same time, much less play and count at the same time.

I equate good rhythm with good pitch: good pitch is the ability to match vibrations measured in fractions of a second, plus or minus about 5%. Good rhythm is the ability to match vibrations measured in fractions of a minute, plus or minus about 5%. I can go on and on about how certain cultures reward good rhythm, while others don't (or reward plodding, even anxiety-provoking rhythms) but that's for another time.

But I am no rhythmic elitist - at least I hope not! I don't believe that you have to communicate a rhythm verbally via counting or some established academic system in order to be "good." I seriously doubt if John Lennon "formally counted" the time changes in many of his songs, or if Mr. Harrison did the same in "Here Comes the Sun." Rhythm is about feel, and a nod or a wave of the guitar neck can communicate a complex rhythm as well as a verbal count in many situations.

dB

[Johnny B]

So I guess the discussion here is, do you know how to count and interpret music, and can you explain it to musicians who don't know if the need arises?

Yes, and sometimes. I'm not a great reader, in fact as far as music for guitar goes, I'm almost as clueless as any non-reading player. For me, the only use of guitar sheet music is assistance in something I can't figure out by ear, because I sure can't sight read. I can transcribe, though.

I can read (and maybe play) simple drum music, though. And there was a time when I could rip it up on the bass clarinet (those days are long gone).

However, sometimes I find myself playing with people who can't even count simple bars in 4. In fact, recently when working on songs, I had a guitar player ask me how long a part went and I told him 8 bars, he looked confused. Then again, this is the same guy who had to have the bassist tell him where the 1 was on his own song.

And there's another song we've been playing that has the ever so tricky dotted quarter notes in it. Basically, the end of every chorus there's a bit that goes DAH DAH DAHHHHHH. The first two are dotted quarters and the last is a quarter on the four tied to a whole note. Then it goes back into the verse. Simple, right? That was, until someone decided the last verse needed to modulate into a different key. It sounded bad hopping right into another key, so I suggested we do that part twice and have the key change between the two. It was the perfect solution, except that the guitarist can't count and always comes back in at the wrong time. I have as yet been unable to satisfactorily explain the complicated counting to him in a way that he can understand, so we've had to resort to me counting it out very loudly while I play.

I now understand why this guy didn't make it past his second semester in music school.

[jmoose]

I usually have almost no hope for people like your gee'tar player buddy...I couldn't play in a band with someone who has no musical knowledge.

I mean geeez,

Even "Try it two steps up" rather then "nahhh doooood, move it over a couple frets" is better then nothing!

[YOUR KONG]

I can count, but generally don't. I think ultimately it comes down to "feel" - especially in rock.

A while ago I did a one-off gig with a song in 5/4 time. The A section was felt as 3+2 (ONE two three ONE two ONE two three ONE two...), the B section was 2+3. The 3+2 A section was a piece of cake because it's basically Take 5 so I "knew" it already.

The B section was a bigger challenge, though. I definitely counted when playing the head for the B section - but when soloing over it I quickly realized I was just going to have to get the "feel" of it under my belt.

(long story short I mocked up the tune in my sequencer and just woodshedded it)

I generally don't bother trying to teach other people, because a "bar" is really only effective when you're looking at written music. At faster or slower tempos a "bar" can be felt as a 2/4 or 4/4 - like "No Woman No Cry" - you can hear it as a really slow 4/4 or a moderately fast 4/4. So which is the bar? If one band member counts it as doubletime, does it mess up the song? Only if Bob says "then we do that part for 4 bars." But if he says "we do that part 4 times" then everything is gonna be all right...

Music notation evolved to communicate ideas in a way that a rock band generally doesn't need. There's no timpanist sitting out for 127 measures.

Rock & roll is effectively a modern oral tradition, when you look at it a certain way.

Wow, this topic gives food for a lot of thought. ...

Anyway, it's new comic day and I'm out of here.

[drumsound]

I equate good rhythm with good pitch: good pitch is the ability to match vibrations measured in fractions of a second, plus or minus about 5%. Good rhythm is the ability to match vibrations measured in fractions of a minute, plus or minus about 5%. I can go on and on about how certain cultures reward good rhythm, while others don't (or reward plodding, even anxiety-provoking rhythms) but that's for another time.

But I am no rhythmic elitist - at least I hope not! I don't believe that you have to communicate a rhythm verbally via counting or some established academic system in order to be "good." I seriously doubt if John Lennon "formally counted" the time changes in many of his songs, or if Mr. Harrison did the same in "Here Comes the Sun." Rhythm is about feel, and a nod or a wave of the guitar neck can communicate a complex rhythm as well as a verbal count in many situations.

dB

If someone has good internal rhythm and can hear more complex things and figure out how to play them that's great. When however that person is not getting it, if they understood counting you could tell them "the accent is on the E of three" and they could count and play it after a couple simple run throughs.

Also, on a tangent, I believe Mr. Harrison could count as we are talking about and then some. He studied Indian classical music which has very complex rhythms, and very specific counting system.

[Johnny B]

I generally don't bother trying to teach other people, because a "bar" is really only effective when you're looking at written music. At faster or slower tempos a "bar" can be felt as a 2/4 or 4/4 - like "No Woman No Cry" - you can hear it as a really slow 4/4 or a moderately fast 4/4. So which is the bar? If one band member counts it as doubletime, does it mess up the song? Only if Bob says "then we do that part for 4 bars." But if he says "we do that part 4 times" then everything is gonna be all right...

As long as everyone understands it all well enough to be able to communicate with each other, then you don't have to have a band full of readers. But, I worked for years with a vocalist who wouldn't know what to do with a piece of sheet music and probably couldn't even give you a decent definition of "key," but he knows enough to know how 4/4 works and what a measure is. And he can program a drum machine. And he could work well enough by feel to sort anything else out.

My guitar playing friend mentioned above, OTOH, has a decent basis in harmonic theory, but couldn't count his way out of a paper bag. He has a drum machine and has no idea how to program it. He either plays along with the pre-programmed beats or just taps out parts into a four-track to play over. As soon as we start talking structure, he just gets completely lost. As in, we can't even tell him "play the part 4 times" without the bass player having to play the part for him so he knows exactly what we mean by "part."

Or if we say, "do the verse part four times before going into the bridge" and we've already established an intro that uses some variation on the verse part, he'll get confused and not know what to play.

I usually have almost no hope for people like your gee'tar player buddy...I couldn't play in a band with someone who has no musical knowledge.

I just got a job in a different state, so it's all academic now, anyway. My impending move has essentially ended this project. It was, umm, interesting while it lasted, though.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i can count but i generally don't. too much of a burden on my simple mind, which normally is busy with other tasks like trying to remember where i put my cup of coffee down.

ah, here it is.

i don't play or really listen to too much music with crazy complicated time changes, but if someone's riffing away in 5 or 7 or whatever i can figure it out and play something appropriate.

what drives me nuts is musicians who don't know any of the note/chord names....i mean it's totally fine if you're completely unschooled...i know lots of really good guitar players who've no idea of the theory behind what they do and that's fine....but it sure is annoying when you're talking to people and you say something like "what about a D chord there?" and get a blank look in exchange.

it's the 10th fucking fret on the big chubby string on the bottom there. no, the 10th fret. the one that's 2 before the one with the two dots on it. yes that's the one. if you would take like 10 minutes a day for a week and learn what all the notes are on your guitar neck you would realize there's a BILLION OTHER WAYS YOU CAN PLAY THE SAME CHORD. REVOLUTIONARY!!!

equally aggravating is people who can't seem to understand or communicate simple song forms. one of my old bands was a pretty straight ahead rock band. you know the song structure already. it was amazing to my how many times this conversation would ensue:
me: ok cool, so we'll do that twice and then go to the chorus
other band member: wait what's the chorus?
me: ok, you know the part you just WEREN'T playing? the second part we came up with? the part that heretofore was known as "the change" and/or "B"? the part where the singer repeats the same catchy melodic bit every time? yes. that part there would be the chorus.
other band member: *plays verse riff*
me: *dies a little more inside*

and also really annoying is people who come up with really cool parts and then don't remember them a week later. argh. in another old band of mine, most tunes came about from jams between me and the bass player. and he could kick out dope basslines all day long. so he'd get on something good, i'd put a beat to it, we'd beat it into the ground for a half hour, say 'that's cool. we can make something with that' and move on. next practice i'd say 'hey let's play that thing in F' and get Ye Olde Blank Stare once again. so eventually it (d)evolved to me watching his hands really closely when we were jamming and memorizing the bassline so i could show it to him later. frustrating.

sorry for ranting away there.....

[joeysimms]

.. When however that person is not getting it, if they understood counting you could tell them "the accent is on the E of three" and they could count and play it after a couple simple run throughs..

If you told me 'the accent is on the E of three', I'd laugh at you and walk away.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

why? what's wrong with being able to speak articulately about the thing you dedicate your life to?

[coniferouspine]

I haven't heard it in a long long while, but I'm pretty sure that in that bootleg of Led Zeppelin rehearsing "Black Dog" for the first time in the studio, they are like, humming the riff over and over to each other, not talking about it in precise musicological terms. I could be wrong though, but that's how I remember it.

[joeysimms]

why? what's wrong with being able to speak articulately about the thing you dedicate your life to?

Because 'accent on the E of three' don't articulate anything to me! Singing it does!