Mic Pre's VS. Mics (rant)
Mic Pre's VS. Mics (rant)
Yah, this is just a rant. But I'm also looking to see if I'm alone on this or not
I have been recording for quite a few years now, on a regular basis. I have my part in a good amount of the "mid sized" local band records that come out in my area. I have an okay setup, typically Digi002 / G5 rig. And sure enough, I spend a lot of time looking at what mic pre I should buy next. Currently, I have a SOLO610, Trident S20, and Trident 4T (also doubles as my bands live vocal strip, main reason for purchase). But I have done records on API's, Aurora GTQ's, Milliennias, etc.
It seems to be a pretty common trend for us smaller studios to research which mic pre is going to get us what sound, and spend big bucks on them ($1,000 - $2,500 a channel!). They look sweet in the rack But what about microphones? My highest end mic is an AudioTechnica 4033, amongst SM57's, an i5, a 421, a Beta 91, etc.
Do I hear the difference in mic pres? Yes, I do. However, I hear a SIGNIFICANT difference between microphones. Much more then switching up a mic pre. I think you know what my "rant" is getting at I have done some recordings lately, and have a new $5,000 budget for upgrades in gear. I'm going to be getting some higher end microphones. But I do understand why it's easy to be caught up in mic pres before microphones, like I said before, they look sweet in the rack.
I have been recording for quite a few years now, on a regular basis. I have my part in a good amount of the "mid sized" local band records that come out in my area. I have an okay setup, typically Digi002 / G5 rig. And sure enough, I spend a lot of time looking at what mic pre I should buy next. Currently, I have a SOLO610, Trident S20, and Trident 4T (also doubles as my bands live vocal strip, main reason for purchase). But I have done records on API's, Aurora GTQ's, Milliennias, etc.
It seems to be a pretty common trend for us smaller studios to research which mic pre is going to get us what sound, and spend big bucks on them ($1,000 - $2,500 a channel!). They look sweet in the rack But what about microphones? My highest end mic is an AudioTechnica 4033, amongst SM57's, an i5, a 421, a Beta 91, etc.
Do I hear the difference in mic pres? Yes, I do. However, I hear a SIGNIFICANT difference between microphones. Much more then switching up a mic pre. I think you know what my "rant" is getting at I have done some recordings lately, and have a new $5,000 budget for upgrades in gear. I'm going to be getting some higher end microphones. But I do understand why it's easy to be caught up in mic pres before microphones, like I said before, they look sweet in the rack.
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Funny thing is, I rip on people for this all the time.
Though don't get me wrong, I certainly love what an outboard preamp can do as an improvement over a console, but I know it's nothing compared to simply swapping the microphone out and getting the sound right from the start.
It's humorous to me to imagine guys with 2 or 3 mics in their locker and 5 or 6 preamps in the rack. I hadn't considered the idea that gear in the racks looks cooler than gear in the closet, but I also always figured everyone lusted after microphones more than preamps.
For me, it also came from the practical side of trying to grow my studio (at least when I was running my only own rig). Simply put, if I added more mics, I could record bigger sessions, but adding preamps just meant that the sessions I was doing could sound different... if I lugged 'em all around since I was mobile.
Then there was the way I learned to record which was in settings where I had access to at least a couple flavors of mics that were simply fed to a small mixer and then a 2-track recorder. (I cut my teeth doing live recital recordings as a student employee at the conservatory.) All I had was mic choices and placements and lots of poor souls to practice on... and no guidance. Oh, I can't imagine what some of those sound like.
Now that I understand quite a bit more about the technology and the process, it makes sense that microphones are performing such a significant job as 'transducers'. They are converting one form of energy (acoustic pressure waves in air) into another form of energy (electricity). That's the singularly most important step in recording as far as I'm concerned since everything else relies on that process being successful.
Certainly preamps are important too since more amplification happens there than at any other stage of the game. Signals are taken from the millivolt level up to the volt level, anywhere from about a 50 to perhaps a 1000 times increase in signal strength. Again, very important, and that's probably why so many people feel it's more important.
And then there's the question of sonics.
When I'm listening to an instrument or voice and trying to decide on a mic, I am thinking of the mic's tonal balance (like EQ), and its speed or response time, and its sensitivity considering how near or far from a loud or soft source it will need to be.
For example, if I've got a bright sounding violin that needs to be tamed to hang with a group I might want something that softens the highs without boosting lows, maybe something that is slightly slower in response to lose the scratchy sound of horsehair & rosin, but something that can still capture soft passages from a few feet above the player. If it's the only instrument in the room, I might reach for a nice ribbon mic, but if it's sitting among 5 other players, perhaps a tube condenser is in order. But if that same instrument needs to cut through the bridge in a thickly layered rock mix, then I might need a bright & fast condenser, maybe an SDC or a center-terminated LDC, and maybe something with a transformer so that scratchiness can be masked with a little harmonic color. Oh yeah, and I'd pick a preamp to compliment the mic choice.
Now as for preamps, there are some things that are easier to accomplish than others.
Preamps can also provide tonal color - that's easy, though there are limits. I can get enough color to maybe make an SM-57 sound like an RE-20, or the other way around, but it's harder to make a '57 sound like an RCA 44 or a TLM-103, because there is more than just tone involved in moving between classes of microphones.
That's where speed comes in, but the trouble is that they can't do as much with speed since they really can only move as fast or slower than the mic being fed to them. There's no preamp in the world that can make an SM-57 move as fast as an Earthworks QTC-1, though there are plenty that can make the QTC as slow as the '57.
And sensitivity is a really tough call. Certainly preamps with widely different input impedences can coax more or less signal out of a microphone, especially dynamic and ribbon mics. Hell, I have a pair of ViPres and the five impedence choices (4 on transformer, one transformerless) can really make one mic into five possibilities but it still can't make a '57 as sensitive as a C-414, let alone as sensitive as Gefell 930. And even in reverse, you can pad and reduce the gain, but if a sensitive mic is getting overpowered by the source, it just needs to either move or be swapped to another mic.
So yeah, there's my somewhat longer rant... in total agreement.
And again, don't get me wrong here, I like preamps too and in fact I'd like to add some more to my rig here. But I really think it's important to cover all the basics in terms of mics first before trying to have preamps fill in the holes.
And at least for me, I figure those basics as a pair of multi-pattern LDCs, a pair of SDCs in cardioid (and maybe another pair in omni), a handful of small dynamics with at least two of any particular type, and at least one large dynamic. After that you can get maybe one 2-channel or bigger preamp. But then it's back to mics to get at least one tube LDC, at least one ribbon or maybe a pair, a pair of passive DI boxes, and a transformer-coupled condenser (or transformerless if there's already a transformer in your basic set). Then splurge and get a couple more preamps. And really specialized mics like lavs, shotguns, PZMs, contact mics, etc. should only appear in the locker if you need them for location or unusual session work, or if you come across 'em by luck, gift, or screaming deals.
Does that seems like a good formula?
-Jeremy
Though don't get me wrong, I certainly love what an outboard preamp can do as an improvement over a console, but I know it's nothing compared to simply swapping the microphone out and getting the sound right from the start.
It's humorous to me to imagine guys with 2 or 3 mics in their locker and 5 or 6 preamps in the rack. I hadn't considered the idea that gear in the racks looks cooler than gear in the closet, but I also always figured everyone lusted after microphones more than preamps.
For me, it also came from the practical side of trying to grow my studio (at least when I was running my only own rig). Simply put, if I added more mics, I could record bigger sessions, but adding preamps just meant that the sessions I was doing could sound different... if I lugged 'em all around since I was mobile.
Then there was the way I learned to record which was in settings where I had access to at least a couple flavors of mics that were simply fed to a small mixer and then a 2-track recorder. (I cut my teeth doing live recital recordings as a student employee at the conservatory.) All I had was mic choices and placements and lots of poor souls to practice on... and no guidance. Oh, I can't imagine what some of those sound like.
Now that I understand quite a bit more about the technology and the process, it makes sense that microphones are performing such a significant job as 'transducers'. They are converting one form of energy (acoustic pressure waves in air) into another form of energy (electricity). That's the singularly most important step in recording as far as I'm concerned since everything else relies on that process being successful.
Certainly preamps are important too since more amplification happens there than at any other stage of the game. Signals are taken from the millivolt level up to the volt level, anywhere from about a 50 to perhaps a 1000 times increase in signal strength. Again, very important, and that's probably why so many people feel it's more important.
And then there's the question of sonics.
When I'm listening to an instrument or voice and trying to decide on a mic, I am thinking of the mic's tonal balance (like EQ), and its speed or response time, and its sensitivity considering how near or far from a loud or soft source it will need to be.
For example, if I've got a bright sounding violin that needs to be tamed to hang with a group I might want something that softens the highs without boosting lows, maybe something that is slightly slower in response to lose the scratchy sound of horsehair & rosin, but something that can still capture soft passages from a few feet above the player. If it's the only instrument in the room, I might reach for a nice ribbon mic, but if it's sitting among 5 other players, perhaps a tube condenser is in order. But if that same instrument needs to cut through the bridge in a thickly layered rock mix, then I might need a bright & fast condenser, maybe an SDC or a center-terminated LDC, and maybe something with a transformer so that scratchiness can be masked with a little harmonic color. Oh yeah, and I'd pick a preamp to compliment the mic choice.
Now as for preamps, there are some things that are easier to accomplish than others.
Preamps can also provide tonal color - that's easy, though there are limits. I can get enough color to maybe make an SM-57 sound like an RE-20, or the other way around, but it's harder to make a '57 sound like an RCA 44 or a TLM-103, because there is more than just tone involved in moving between classes of microphones.
That's where speed comes in, but the trouble is that they can't do as much with speed since they really can only move as fast or slower than the mic being fed to them. There's no preamp in the world that can make an SM-57 move as fast as an Earthworks QTC-1, though there are plenty that can make the QTC as slow as the '57.
And sensitivity is a really tough call. Certainly preamps with widely different input impedences can coax more or less signal out of a microphone, especially dynamic and ribbon mics. Hell, I have a pair of ViPres and the five impedence choices (4 on transformer, one transformerless) can really make one mic into five possibilities but it still can't make a '57 as sensitive as a C-414, let alone as sensitive as Gefell 930. And even in reverse, you can pad and reduce the gain, but if a sensitive mic is getting overpowered by the source, it just needs to either move or be swapped to another mic.
So yeah, there's my somewhat longer rant... in total agreement.
And again, don't get me wrong here, I like preamps too and in fact I'd like to add some more to my rig here. But I really think it's important to cover all the basics in terms of mics first before trying to have preamps fill in the holes.
And at least for me, I figure those basics as a pair of multi-pattern LDCs, a pair of SDCs in cardioid (and maybe another pair in omni), a handful of small dynamics with at least two of any particular type, and at least one large dynamic. After that you can get maybe one 2-channel or bigger preamp. But then it's back to mics to get at least one tube LDC, at least one ribbon or maybe a pair, a pair of passive DI boxes, and a transformer-coupled condenser (or transformerless if there's already a transformer in your basic set). Then splurge and get a couple more preamps. And really specialized mics like lavs, shotguns, PZMs, contact mics, etc. should only appear in the locker if you need them for location or unusual session work, or if you come across 'em by luck, gift, or screaming deals.
Does that seems like a good formula?
-Jeremy
- I'm Painting Again
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I look at the preamp as an extension of the mic circuit..and everything for that matter down to the laser or magnetic head..when you connect them they become one thing..
If I had to pick though I might lean toward the preamp side since my experience has showed me that upgrading those and using the same basic budget mics gave me more of what I personally wanted in my recordings..
If I had to pick though I might lean toward the preamp side since my experience has showed me that upgrading those and using the same basic budget mics gave me more of what I personally wanted in my recordings..
I think I fall on the other end of the spectrum, but within reason.
A few personal frames of reference which you may or may not agree with:
1. I think of all the circuits not loosely as filters (in varying degrees).
2. In the preamps I enjoy, there are generally subtle textural differences between brands and models rather than huge curve differences.
I have found using "high end" pres (eg. Millennia, Great River), that it is easier and faster to get tones I like, without the need to reach for compressors and other outboard. Cheap and funky mics are suddenly "cool" sounding, and medium-nice mics have sublime subtlety.
I find myself in more of a nice Nigiri, mode rather than a "yesterday's-fish-in-a-roll-covered-in-spicy-sauce-hide-the-funk" mode.
Furthermore, if I change my mind in the future, my nice gear rarely loses much of its value, whereas all the prosumer gear, is usually worth a fraction of its initial investment.
For me, high end pre's= faster, better recordings, better capital investment, and less gear in my rack (it sounds great without too much "stuff")
Again, within reason. I have a fairly nice variety of mics to choose from. If I didn't have the SM7 and a few different condensors, I think I would have to have them first...
Now I'm hungry...
Regards,
H
A few personal frames of reference which you may or may not agree with:
1. I think of all the circuits not loosely as filters (in varying degrees).
2. In the preamps I enjoy, there are generally subtle textural differences between brands and models rather than huge curve differences.
I have found using "high end" pres (eg. Millennia, Great River), that it is easier and faster to get tones I like, without the need to reach for compressors and other outboard. Cheap and funky mics are suddenly "cool" sounding, and medium-nice mics have sublime subtlety.
I find myself in more of a nice Nigiri, mode rather than a "yesterday's-fish-in-a-roll-covered-in-spicy-sauce-hide-the-funk" mode.
Furthermore, if I change my mind in the future, my nice gear rarely loses much of its value, whereas all the prosumer gear, is usually worth a fraction of its initial investment.
For me, high end pre's= faster, better recordings, better capital investment, and less gear in my rack (it sounds great without too much "stuff")
Again, within reason. I have a fairly nice variety of mics to choose from. If I didn't have the SM7 and a few different condensors, I think I would have to have them first...
Now I'm hungry...
Regards,
H
- digitaldrummer
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I agree with MattGrabe's rant and I've tried to strike a balance between mics and pres. In the hopes of not going too far off topic, I would like to extend the rant to the irrational view IMO that budget preamps shouldn't be considered by any serious recordist. I've carefully put together 11 channels of budget preamps that all sound better than my Mackie 1642 (not surprising) and I have expanded my mic collection in tandem.
The average cost of these 11 channels is $190 per channel including upgrades. The pres include ART Pro Channels upgraded with Mullard tubes, ART MPA Gold upgraded with JAN NOS tubes, Presonus MP20 upgrade with Burr Brown opamps, Presonus BlueTubes, and an EH12AY7 with Mullard tubes.
I readily admit that I'm lacking the color choices of Neve clones or APIs. I do my best to make up for that with microphone choice and maybe a little EQ or digital harmonic tweaking in the mix. But these pres, especially the ARTs, the MP20, and the EH12AY7 are fast, detailed, and dynamic. I believe that it is more effective on my budget to get color and other sound character choices from microphones than expensive preamps.
I largely came to this conclusion from listening to the mic and pre comparisons on the Listening Sessions web site. I know that folks in the expensive preamp camp are going to say that it's a lot more than this but mostly what I hear between different pres is frequency response differences. It just seems like $2000 is a lot to spend for one channel of fixed tone control. Yeah, I know that there are harmonic differences and that certain pres give you different sounds as you apply more gain and if I had $100k to spend on gear I would love to have them. Besides, they really do look awesome in the rack. But alas, my ART MPA Gold with upgraded tubes for about $320 (including new tubes) isn't too bad.
The average cost of these 11 channels is $190 per channel including upgrades. The pres include ART Pro Channels upgraded with Mullard tubes, ART MPA Gold upgraded with JAN NOS tubes, Presonus MP20 upgrade with Burr Brown opamps, Presonus BlueTubes, and an EH12AY7 with Mullard tubes.
I readily admit that I'm lacking the color choices of Neve clones or APIs. I do my best to make up for that with microphone choice and maybe a little EQ or digital harmonic tweaking in the mix. But these pres, especially the ARTs, the MP20, and the EH12AY7 are fast, detailed, and dynamic. I believe that it is more effective on my budget to get color and other sound character choices from microphones than expensive preamps.
I largely came to this conclusion from listening to the mic and pre comparisons on the Listening Sessions web site. I know that folks in the expensive preamp camp are going to say that it's a lot more than this but mostly what I hear between different pres is frequency response differences. It just seems like $2000 is a lot to spend for one channel of fixed tone control. Yeah, I know that there are harmonic differences and that certain pres give you different sounds as you apply more gain and if I had $100k to spend on gear I would love to have them. Besides, they really do look awesome in the rack. But alas, my ART MPA Gold with upgraded tubes for about $320 (including new tubes) isn't too bad.
My personal experience does not agree with this statement. I have bought and sold several pieces of prosumer gear and found that it holds its value very well. For example, I bought a used Aphex 201 preamp on ebay and sold it a year later for $10 less than I paid for it. In fact, you are much more likely to find bargains on prosumer gear which makes it a much better value. I got my MPA Gold for $240.00 new. The used ones on ebay go for about $200. I got my MP20 for $320, just about what they go for used. My prosumer gear is holding its value extremely well.Furthermore, if I change my mind in the future, my nice gear rarely loses much of its value, whereas all the prosumer gear, is usually worth a fraction of its initial investment.
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I have a bunch of fairly cheap but nice mics, like the MXL V67G, Studio Projects C2, and Heil PR-40, and my most expensive mic is the $400 Beyer M160. These are all terrific products. But when I wanted to upgrade my signal chain, I could either build a couple of Hamptones, or I could keep saving money for a U87 or something. And after using a borrowed U87 for a week, I went with the pres.
My mics sound good. A U87 would sound better. But...not $1600 better. The pres, on the other hand, were fun to build, sound amazing, and are useful for SO many more things, to me, than another mic. Flavorful distortion, bass DI, warming up synths, interesting gain staging experiments, etc. Much cheaper, too. And they made my cheap mics sound better than they had before!
so, I dunno. In my case, I made the right choice...
My mics sound good. A U87 would sound better. But...not $1600 better. The pres, on the other hand, were fun to build, sound amazing, and are useful for SO many more things, to me, than another mic. Flavorful distortion, bass DI, warming up synths, interesting gain staging experiments, etc. Much cheaper, too. And they made my cheap mics sound better than they had before!
so, I dunno. In my case, I made the right choice...
I found my balance on this issue...I lust after everything. Pres, mics, compressors, FX units...It doesn't matter. I totally agree with the "cooler in the rack" statement. but there's also nothing like the feel of opening a nice cherry wood box and pulling out your flagship microphone. I'm going to concentrate on getting some better ribbon mics and then a good stereo buss compressor. Maybe I'll back off after that but I doubt it....Oh yea..I'm going to upgrade my board too. hahahaha...It never stops.
I think having good preamps is important, just as important as having good mics. I agree though that equipment manufacturers, helped by their propaganda wing the magazine industry (not talking about TO, of course) have inspired a preamp fetish that is beyond all reason.
There is certainly a valid reason to buy outboard preamps to give you a solid signal path, but this whole idea that you need 98 different preamps is insane. Remember, all the classic albums made before about 1980 were done with one kind of preamp- whatever was in the desk. Yes, desks had excellent preamps in those days, but it was still only one kind.
Would I love to have a rack full of every preamp ever made? Of course. Would it make my job easier? Yes. Could I justify the expense? Not in this lifetime. Of course there are those who can, and I'm happy for them, but that's not the world 99.99% of us live in.
There is certainly a valid reason to buy outboard preamps to give you a solid signal path, but this whole idea that you need 98 different preamps is insane. Remember, all the classic albums made before about 1980 were done with one kind of preamp- whatever was in the desk. Yes, desks had excellent preamps in those days, but it was still only one kind.
Would I love to have a rack full of every preamp ever made? Of course. Would it make my job easier? Yes. Could I justify the expense? Not in this lifetime. Of course there are those who can, and I'm happy for them, but that's not the world 99.99% of us live in.
Steve Albini used to like it
My personal experience does not agree with this statement. I have bought and sold several pieces of prosumer gear and found that it holds its value very well. For example, I bought a used Aphex 201 preamp on ebay and sold it a year later for $10 less than I paid for it. In fact, you are much more likely to find bargains on prosumer gear which makes it a much better value. I got my MPA Gold for $240.00 new. The used ones on ebay go for about $200. I got my MP20 for $320, just about what they go for used. My prosumer gear is holding its value extremely well.[/quote]Furthermore, if I change my mind in the future, my nice gear rarely loses much of its value, whereas all the prosumer gear, is usually worth a fraction of its initial investment.
Was that new or used for each? Are the good deals you got anomalous, or can everyone expect these prices? Buying used gear at a fraction of its original price underscores my point. I know from my experiences doing blind tests that I need the expensive stuff-I don't want to, but I do!
Value is in the ear of the beholder, and whatever makes the client happy and represents what you are trying to say (musically, etc.) is the right gear. I have found that bargains rarely are, and that it is cheaper to get the right piece of gear the first time around, if you can. Substitutes are just that.
If you are hearing the sound of an MP-20 or ART, use it! It's what your ear says is needed. On the other hand, if you think it's "good enough", well...perhaps that's another story. This is just wrong-I feel like I'm talking about a woman, except the gear doesn't mind if have more than one preamp!
I'm not an elitist, nor am I saying "screw the budget, full speed ahead!". In my case, it's cheaper to separate the wheat from the chaff, and not spend anything on "good deals" if it's not what you really hear (in the mind's ear, so to speak).
to each...
-H
Actually, it'd probably make your life harder, since you'd spend more time trying to define small differences between them. At least it would work that way for me.lobstman wrote:Would I love to have a rack full of every preamp ever made? Of course. Would it make my job easier? Yes. Could I justify the expense? Not in this lifetime. Of course there are those who can, and I'm happy for them, but that's not the world 99.99% of us live in.
"when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
While it may indeed be more economical, in the long run, many of us are going at this recording thing in a step by step fashion. While it may be that the final sound in my head comes from hugher end stuff, I'm usually making decisions based on what I hear now coming out of my monitors(an issue in and of itself). If this piece of gear sounds better here and now than another, then I'll likely use this one. If something else becomes available in the future, I may go that way.UXB wrote: Value is in the ear of the beholder, and whatever makes the client happy and represents what you are trying to say (musically, etc.) is the right gear. I have found that bargains rarely are, and that it is cheaper to get the right piece of gear the first time around, if you can. Substitutes are just that.
If you are hearing the sound of an MP-20 or ART, use it! It's what your ear says is needed. On the other hand, if you think it's "good enough", well...perhaps that's another story. This is just wrong-I feel like I'm talking about a woman, except the gear doesn't mind if have more than one preamp!
I'm not an elitist, nor am I saying "screw the budget, full speed ahead!". In my case, it's cheaper to separate the wheat from the chaff, and not spend anything on "good deals" if it's not what you really hear (in the mind's ear, so to speak).
The best thing for a given application is the one that I have, that sounds best, not the one I might have someday, if I save up long enough.
"when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
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