Fender Twin or Ampeg vt-22?

[liftyrfists]

I've currently got a twin, but I'm just not sure. I know that an older vt-22 would undoubtedly sound better because of the age...but why do they seem to be so cheaply priced? I would be running mostly viola/violin/electric guitar through the amp. The fender has been decent, and my new kramer 650g sounds lovely...but I just ponder...

Anyway, they're both monters in the weight dept., so no escaping that. Sophie from godspeed/mt. zion uses a vt-22 I believe and it sounds amazing, so since I'm running violin and viola this thought had occured to me, naturally.

[AGCurry]

If the VT-22 would "Undoubtedly sound better," that means you have no doubt. Therefore, you should get it. And you can sell me that nasty Twin Reverb, cheap.

"because of the age?" Why would age matter?

The VT-22 is a great amp. Ungodly loud (louder than the Twin) and ungodly heavy.

But I would think for viol instruments, you would want something a little more full-range, like an acoustic-instrument amp/speaker. Something with a tweeter.

[ckeene]

VT-22s and V4s have a great chunky sound. I had a VT-22 for a while and it sounded great if you were willing to play it at 7-8. The tone I'd most liken it to would be the intro to "Clash City Rockers". If you played it clean, it was kind of noisy. I also have friends who are big Ampeg fans and their V4s and VT-22s are constantly in the shop, so generally I'm not impressed with their reliability.

Twins are just so all over the place tone wise, it's kind of hard to even discuss.

[meblumen]

I know that an older vt-22 would undoubtedly sound better because of the age...but why do they seem to be so cheaply priced?.

Older doesn't mean better, in fact, depending on the amp, being older might have given it more time to worked on by idiot techs who don't know what they are doing. I know when I got my bassman it had "new 3 prong" cable installed incorrectly so try before you buy and if possible give the amp a good once over.

Many good amps are quite a bit cheaper than some of their contemporaries. Who knows always why one amp becomes a household name or a valuable collectors item while another similiar amp remains affordable. All I can say is we should be happy that old ampegs, bassmans and other great amps are still within reach of a modest budget.

Sophie from godspeed/mt. zion uses a vt-22 I believe and it sounds amazing, so since I'm running violin and viola this thought had occured to me, naturally.

Just because one amp works for someone else you admire doesn't mean it will work for you. The instrument they employ and their technique does have a substantial impact on the tone. So, make sure you try it before you sell the twin. Vt-22s are nice (albeit really loud), so are twins as well as a half dozen other amps. The key is finding one that will work for you.

If you do get a VT-22 try to get one of the older ones with the black rocker switches, I know most people prefer those to the latter models which I believe also had built in distortion.

[GREGL]

I have owned and worked on lots of old Ampeg amps, including owning a couple of VT22's at various times. Ampegs are not intrinsically unreliable. In fact they are extremely well built. The problem is that many of these ran so well for so long that maintenance that should have been performed long ago was has never been done. This includes replacing tubes, filter caps, checking resistor values and checking for proper bias. I have worked on a
a number of V4's, VT22's etc that were still working but should have died long ago. So its no wonder some of them have reliability problems eventually. If you buy one get a good tech and have it gone over thoroughly. Its worth it.
Another issue with these is that the tubes are harder to find. Some of them aren't made anymore but can be found NOS fairly easily.
And lastly, when you can turn them up they have great tone but I have never heard anything louder than a VT22. So if you are going to use it in the studio or for gigs in anything other than in a gymanasium or auditorium its probably not the best thing. The clean sound isn't that great unless the amp is played LOUD.

[E.Bennett]

the v4 that i used to use had one of the nicest sounding reverbs and the low end was ridiculous. i love this era of ampeg. the gem was the vt-40 (the 4x10 combo)? the trick was figuring out the mid range. you can scoop the mids and still maintain presence. i was never able to scoop the mids on my 70's twin without it sounding hollow. the real battle was hauling these things around. they weigh a ton.

[AGCurry]

Back to using it for a violin...

Even if a large speaker can reproduce a relatively high frequency, "beaming" is a problem. You will hear the high frequency fine on axis but it will disappear off axis. The larger the speaker, the more pronounced the beaming becomes.

If you're going to mic the amp, it's not an issue. But, if you're gonna mic the amp, why get one so damn loud and heavy?

I played with a fiddler who used a Super Reverb, and there was definitely a big difference in his sound on axis and off. It'd be more of an issue with 12" speakers.

That's why I'd recommend something with a tweeter horn.

[liftyrfists]

I see I see...all of this does seem true. I know that the older thing doesn't always make a difference, but holding all things constant on an amp, in that they have remained "in-tact" (which may be a little unrealistic for such an old amp) I thought older meant more broken in and such. But...perhaps that problem does lie in the unrealistic nature of that. Who knows, haha.

But are there any particular amps you would recommend with a tweeter horn? I'm looking for something that can work with both an electric guitar and violin/viola, but the twin does sound really good with the kramer...so perhaps I should just start looking for something that is a little more geared toward these stringed instruments that I'm so fond of. Granted this black finger compressor has really helped the sound of the violin/viola on the twin; naturally.

I've heard great things about a little unknown, I think anyway, brand called Centaur. Any other recommendations?

And I did take a little poetic license in saying undoubtedly, perhaps to the point that I'm not really sure at all, haha.

[AGCurry]

Recommendations?

Traditional guitar amps just don't use tweeters. Tweeters don't do a thing for electric guitars - but they're nice for acoustics.

You could use two amps.

Or, you could mic the amp.

Or, you could get yourself a small PA speaker and rig a foot switch to connect and disconnect it. The low C on a viola is what, 256 (or is it 128) hz?

[meblumen]

I got a question for you liftyrfists. My new band has a cello player. Right now she uses a small akg condensor just off her F-hole sent straight to the PA. However, we constantly have feedback problems and she wants to get more into using effects and experimenting with her sound. Hence, I was wondering, how do you send your viola/violin into your amp?

[friendlybunny]

I have owned both, and I would personally choose the Fender Twin. My Ampeg sounded great, but it was always in the shop, and it was expensive to fix (the power tubes are expensive). A twin is very loud, and the late 70s versions are even louder at 135 watts(!)

I think the vt22s are cheaply priced because they usually need some work when you buy them. Its hard to find a mint condition Ampeg.

[liftyrfists]

I got a question for you liftyrfists. My new band has a cello player. Right now she uses a small akg condensor just off her F-hole sent straight to the PA. However, we constantly have feedback problems and she wants to get more into using effects and experimenting with her sound. Hence, I was wondering, how do you send your viola/violin into your amp?

I use a David Gage realist, which is a pick-up. It's basically a flat copper piece that fits under the bridge, and works incredibly well. There are cello sizes available I believe. All I've heard about them is praise, and I've been very very happy with mine. Here:

http://www.davidgage.com/catalog/produc ... ucts_id=29

Hope that finds your cellist well...

[meblumen]

I got a question for you liftyrfists. My new band has a cello player. Right now she uses a small akg condensor just off her F-hole sent straight to the PA. However, we constantly have feedback problems and she wants to get more into using effects and experimenting with her sound. Hence, I was wondering, how do you send your viola/violin into your amp?

I use a David Gage realist, which is a pick-up. It's basically a flat copper piece that fits under the bridge, and works incredibly well. There are cello sizes available I believe. All I've heard about them is praise, and I've been very very happy with mine. Here:

http://www.davidgage.com/catalog/produc ... ucts_id=29

Hope that finds your cellist well...

I try to help you and you end up helping me more, thanks. I got one last question for you. Based on a quick glance at Gage's site, the pick-up functions much like a guitar pick-up. Hence, it could easily be run into a DI to be fed thru a PA or plugged straight into an amp without any preamp or anything else to boost the signal, correct?

Thanks again and good luck with the amp search. I'll have to talk to the cellist about the PU but if she gets it, my friend has a Ampeg V-4 (virtually the same as the VT-22), I'll have her try it out and let you know how it sounds.

[The Real MC]

Back in the 60s Ampeg used to discourage overdriving their amplifiers into distortion.

[liftyrfists]

Right. You can simply run a cord from the pick-up to the amp. Unfortunately the realist that I have has a 1/8 insert, and most everything is 1/4, so I have to use an adaptor. I'm sure they have some 1/4 to 1/8 cords, but I just haven't really looked.

Also, when running through the amp, I use a compressor which helps out considerably. I have the electro-harmonix black-finger compressor, which I have enjoyed quite thoroughly. And yes, let me know how that v-4 is.