Recording Levels

skywavebe · Post by **skywavebe** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:24 am

I am very glad that John has a good handle on this. It seems that Columbia College is putting out more people all the time that I have to deal with in radio that think the meters are suppose to peg in the red to sound good.
Thank you John Scrip for the well said and long overdue comments from apparently a established source.

Barlines · Post by **Barlines** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:58 am

Ok, I have read so much about recording levels it makes my head hurt. Honestly, I understand everything related to the subject if I was using actual pro level gear, but I have questions about using my particular hardware.

I have the Echo Audiofire 8 interface which is calibrated to 0dBVU = +4dBu = -14dbFS. I send a -14dBFS 1kHz sine wave from output 1 directly into input 1 on the front of the unit, the combo mic/line preamp, using a balanced TRS cable. Everything is at unity gain. The test tone comes into the computer reading -14dbFS. This is fantastic.

Here's the problem: each input on the front has 3 lights. Here's what the manual states:

If you want to adjust the input level of a universal input, just turn the trim knob and
watch the corresponding level meter. The red light at the top will light anytime the
input signal is greater than ?6.5dBFS (or within 6.5dB of clipping). The yellow
light represents a signal greater than ?12.5dBFS, and the green light represents a
signal greater than ?36.5dBFS.

Well, I believe this is wrong. Here's what I found using the 1kHz test tone:
(I can only go in whole dB steps from Ableton Live's test tone)
Green = -36 to -35dbFS
Yellow = -24 to -23dbFS
Red = -12 to -11dbFS

Basically the manual says that you should record as hot as possible without triggering the red light. This is really sensible given what I found out above. But of course, this makes it seem like I only have 2dB of headroom above +4dBu on any of the 8 inputs of the interface (The other 6 inputs have the same specifications as the 2 combo inputs on the front).

So what does this mean? Well, this is definitely not professional level gear.

I'm really not sure if I can go above -12 dbFS peak on any of the inputs. Why does the manual say I have 14dB of headroom above line level if they don't want me to exceed -12dbFS?

Your Echo product provides approximately 14dB of headroom
allowing an 18dBu signal to be recorded.

I've got two theories on where I should set my levels:
1. Aim for -24dBFS RMS on pretty much everything except percussion. (This is what I was doing before, it works out well when mixing at -20dbFS RMS)
or
2. Never ever go over -12dbFS Peak. This means pretty much everything is recorded below line level.

After this little experiment, I'm leaning towards #2. However, this makes it really hard to connect with other studio equipment as there are no trim knobs for the inputs. Also, my "line levels" for sources would be determined by the average-to-peak ratio.

I have a really good understanding of all the theory, but I can't make it work for this consumer level interface. Good lord, no wonder people have so many problems with this subject.

farview · Post by **farview** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:47 am

Unless you have no other metering, ignore the three lights. They are pretty much useless.

You want to send a line level signal, period. That means averaging at -14dbfs in your case. The only thing that will change that advice is if your peaks are clipping the input (trying to go above -0dbfs). Then you will have to turn down until it isn't clipping any more.

The whole 'recording at line level' thing is about keeping the analog part of the signal path in it's 'comfort zone'. The digital side can handle signal all the way up to clipping without a problem. (even though you have to turn it down to mix)

That 14db of headroom is there to catch the peaks, that's what it is for. For any signal that has less than a 14db crest (in your case), line level is the way to go. Any signal with a higher crest, you will need to back down the gain so the transients don't clip. I like to keep 4-6db of headroom just in case of suprises.

Close is good enough, you don't have to worry beyond getting the levels in the ballpark.

freddiefreeloader · Post by **freddiefreeloader** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:26 am

Holy crap, this thread scared me half to death. Just in case anyone else is reading this and going through what I did...I admittedly skimmed through a lot of it (but have pretty thoroughly read the first few pages) and ended up getting the impression that I was tracking 2 or 3 times louder than this thread suggests. I read the post about option clicking to see your peak level in PT and ran out right away to open up a session and check it out. I got really freaked out when a lot of my tracks were coming in peaking in much much hotter than -18 or -16 or what-have-you. I then read on about using the trim plugin to meter, and also that things like drums that repeatedly have peaking transients are ok coming in around -6 or so. Phew! Looks like I'm doing it all correctly, as I'm averaging right about -18 on my tracks. I found the Bomb Factory Essential Noise Meter especially useful for checking the levels. It's got the RMS and peak metering options. Good way to see your average and peaks.

BTW, someone else mentioned earlier in this thread that a lot of people nowadays are musicians turned engineers. I too am in that boat, for the sheer use of recording my own music/band, and am completely uneducated about this stuff (which is why I usually end up asking silly and maybe even annoyingly elementary questions sometimes). It's good to have places like this to read, discuss, and learn, so thank you to the educated folk who (even out of ranting disgust) spill their knowledge for people like me

Jettison · Post by **Jettison** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:54 pm

Wow. This thread is almost 3 years old. It sure helped me. And it helped some friends a while back. I'm sure it'll help more people yet. Thanks to all.

MASSIVE Mastering · Post by **MASSIVE Mastering** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:26 am

skywavebe wrote:I am very glad that John has a good handle on this. It seems that Columbia College is putting out more people all the time that I have to deal with in radio that think the meters are suppose to peg in the red to sound good.
Thank you John Scrip for the well said and long overdue comments from apparently a established source.

Geez, I hope I didn't point at anyone specifically... I see it coming from a lot of educational facilities, manuals, books on recording, etc.

Jettison · Post by **Jettison** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:28 pm

This thread SHOULD be a sticky.

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