Recording GUITARS - thin / weak tone - PLEASE HELP!!

[SMC Productions]

what mics do you think are best for recording electric guitars?

This question would get a million different answers from almost as many folks. First off, I *don't* like the 57 (Jack of all Trades, Master of none!) on guitar cabs. I'm just NOT a big fan of that mic. I know it's blashfamous, but it takes alot of tweaking to get it to sound NOT honkey, etc. I prefer the Senny e609. It's easy to hang over the cabs, it's fairly inexpensive, so anyone can afford several. It's very directional, so it doesn't pick up bleed from other amps, etc. ..and to me, when you get a decent tone in the room, the 609 sounds pretty much like your ear 'hears it'!

I usually mike the speaker a bit off axis, just hanging down the front of the cab, resting on the grill almost, then take a DI from the amp. I also like the fairly new Damage Control Demonizer, it's a tube (high voltage) driven pre type pedal unit, and DI from it also (http://www.damagecontrolusa.com/dmz.htm)...then don't forget a room mic or two. I track these all seperatly of course, then 'blend' to taste. The DI's usually have a bit more definition, but not the balls, the mics have more of the balls, and the room, gives you the 'larger' sound.

I also use the stereo outs of a Pod unit or clone and 'blend' them in, if needed for a bit of different flavor.

[Mark Alan Miller]

After years of fussing around with all sorts of suggestion for mic positions/combos, mic choices, preamp choices and so on it came to me.
I got down in front of the amp. Right in front of it. Listened to what was coming off the speaker, on axis with it. I found that if the mic'd tone was thin, but sounded great in the room, it always sounded thin when right in front of the amp.
The solution? Either put the mic where it sounds great to you in the room (which was always mixed and/or unpredictable in its results) or more simply, put the mic directly in front of the cone, on center, on axis.
95% of the time if the amp sounds great on-axis to the ear, a 57 or similarly predictable mic will capture it right in front of the speaker, on center with the dust cap, smack dab on axis. No eq, save for a HPF should be needed.
Once I figured that out, tracking guitars became so much easier - so much more fun - and so much more predictable.
Seriously, it's mostly at the amp.

As some say, though, YMMV.

Now, regarding the 'old standby' of the 57 on amps. Works a lot this way, but I use a lot of different mics, chosen for what I know about them, to compliment or deemphasise things about the amp in question. I used an MXL V57M on a Vox AC30 this week and it simply ruled (except when the amp was too loud - there's no pad on the V57... the amp was in my relatively 'dead' iso room so we just backed the mic off a couple of inches, on axis with the speaker, when we needed to 'crank it a little'.
Other mics I have a lot of luck with are ATM25s, SM81s, 421s, and occasionally things like E100s or even my Beyer MC740. Oh, the TOMB ribbons are cool too. I like mike just the way they are so I haven't modded them at all. Sure, they're a little dark - but sometimes that's just what the doctor ordered.

Sometimes, but only sometimes, do I bother with two mics close up. Too much phase/time alignment hassle a lot of the time. A second mic in the room, well, if that's what the track needs, that's a different story...

Just some thoughts...

[Slider]

I got down in front of the amp. Right in front of it. Listened to what was coming off the speaker, on axis with it. I found that if the mic'd tone was thin, but sounded great in the room, it always sounded thin when right in front of the amp.
The solution? Either put the mic where it sounds great to you in the room (which was always mixed and/or unpredictable in its results) or more simply, put the mic directly in front of the cone, on center, on axis.
95% of the time if the amp sounds great on-axis to the ear, a 57 or similarly predictable mic will capture it right in front of the speaker, on center with the dust cap, smack dab on axis. No eq, save for a HPF should be needed.
Once I figured that out, tracking guitars became so much easier - so much more fun - and so much more predictable.
Seriously, it's mostly at the amp.

I totally agree.
The source is what it's all about.
BTW another great cheap mic for rock guitars is the Rode NT1000.
I don't think they sell them new anymore, but used they should be very reasonable.
This mic rules on dirty guitars.
Compliments the sm57 perfectly.
Remember arrangement and tuning can make all the difference in the perceived "tone" too.
I'll also say that when you put a 57 or 421 through a nice pre in front of a dirty amp, usually the guitarist will say "Wow, what mic is that? It sounds great"
Sometimes you'll think you have this great huge sound with a bunch of fancy mics, then you play it with the track and the 57 or 421 alone works best.
It happens.

[jamoo]

I'm having some trouble recording electric guitars. I keep getting a really thin, shitty, mid-ranged tone. i feel like i've tried everything.

Dude, you've stolen my sound! Add harsh and we might be the same person...

...we'll maybe after you've made many hundreds more posts.

[junkyardtodd]

I REALLY don't want to rely on a freakin' POD, but so far, that thing has the best tones that i have heard lately.

But what's wrong with using a POD? You said that you liked the sound of it, plus it's easy, and you can do your stuff as long as you want witlhout irritating the neighbors. In my experience it's really difficult to get good clean guitar sounds in a home studio. Much easier to get nasty fuzzy stuff using amps and mics, which is where the POD doesn't work as well. Be free my Brother!!

[mertmo]

Maybe it's the Marshall... I hate to spew rock and roll blasphemy, but typically, IMO, Marshall's are kinda thin and shrill on most guitars. Maybe I'm a freak.
Maybe I just don't like them... I always have a hard time getting a tone I
like from a miced marshall. (except for recent experiences with putting a rhodes through one -- BAM!)

Here's some ideas:

1) Try NOT micing the speaker in the center. In between the center and the
edge of the cone is always thicker and warmer sounding to me... (more blasphemy?)

2) Try a D112, or a Shure Beta 52 instead of the standby 57. Or an EV 357.
Any one of those does what the 57 does but bigger and more naturally. (again, to ME). Lately, the Beta 52 has been really impressing me on guitar amps.

3)Is your marshall one of the ones where you can jumper the inputs into
each other? That can really help beef up a marshall.

4) Run your POD in front of the Marshall like a pedal. You might get the
perfect combo of the pod sound and the "moving air" reality of the amp.

5) Use the POD with wild abandon and don't obsess over exactly how you
are bringing the rock.

...good suggestion earlier about getting the amp off the floor. If it's a
reflective floor that could definitely be weirdness.

[ganoosh]

ok. cool. thanks for the input! i'm thinking about buying another mic (for electric guitars) soon, and i'm just wondering what has worked well for others out there. for some reason, most studios that i have recorded in usually used 57's for elec guitars, but i'm not too stoked on the results i am getting lately. ..keep going back to my POD for good tones.

ANYONE ELSE WANT TO POST ON THIS TOPIC?

what reasonably priced mics work well for micing guitar cabs? ..don't have a huge budget.

THANKS!!

[T-rex]

Back when I was doing a lot of indie rock we recorded Marshal cabs all the time. The one combo that always seemed to work for me was to figure out which speaker sounded best to my ear and then throw a 57 up about an inch or so off the grill pointing at the center cap of the speaker and on axis (or a lot of times point the 57 directly at where the center cap meets the cone). Then I would throw my C1 condensor next to the 57, keeping the two mic's diaphrams in line with each other and as close as the two can get. Your 4033 probably sounds pretty similiar to the C1.

The sm57 has that midrangey honk but it's minimized a bit cause the center cap is where most of the highs live. Then the C1/4033 which is bright picks up more mids and lows from the middle of the cone. Blend the two sounds together to taste.

That's the best advice I can give on recording Marshal cabs, as it always seem to work for me. I recorded in a small room at crazy loud volume and I usually put a set of cubicle walls angled a few feet infront of the cab to minimize reflections. It was always a Les Paul through a marshal and the amp sounded nice in the room.

[T-rex]

Also, how does it sound in the mix? Still weak and thin? Obviously you want your guitar tone to sound great and all, but I was always surprised at how much lows and mids I would take out in order to make the guitars cut through in a dense mix.

[lancebug]

I have also found the 57 hard to get a "full" tone out of from a crunchy cab . The presence peak was just too much (so bye-bye 57). I recommend something flatter or with more low end respnse. I have been using an ev re10 a lot with very natural results. The lack of proximity effect with this mic allows me to keep the mic close, while moving it out towards the edge of the cone. This way I get more natural bottom end without worrying about it becoming woofy. Any of the ev mics with the vents down the side can do this. I imagine dynamic omnis would work well too.

[meblumen]

ANYONE ELSE WANT TO POST ON THIS TOPIC?

what reasonably priced mics work well for micing guitar cabs? ..don't have a huge budget.

THANKS!!

Here are a couple I usually throw up:
Beyerdynamic m201, Beyerdynamic m160, Shure SM57, Shure SM7, Audio-Technica 4050, Sennheiser 421.

I also have a couple of Egg Static mics that work great in conjunction with another mic, especially for dirty mid-rangey stuff. Beta 52's as well as M88's and even EV20 work for me sometimes as well. I haven't used the Sennheiser 609's in the studio but live they always have worked well. I don't know your budget but all of the above can be had new or atleast used for under $500.

[joel hamilton]

Make the amp sound good THROUGH THE MIC.
it doesnt matter how kick ass you think the tone is when you are standing right in front of it. unless you are using your ears to record the sound...
What you want is something that sounds killing through your monitors, on the other side of the glass from the amp. if you have a long speaker cable, or a way to patch speaker level through the wall, you can put the head in near you, and adjust while listening through your mics. If it is a combo, you can run back and forth. Leave the mic where you think it sounds okay, then change the amp settings to make it sound like you want through your monitors. The source is not "sacred" in this sense. You need to modify the source to get what you are looking for on tape, and in the mix. unless you are totally comfortable with recognizing phase relationships in a multi mic setup, just stuff one mic up against the grill and make changes at the amp. Dont just buy something. Make it sound good with what you have and then grow from there. It doesnt really cost anything to turn the trble all the way down (which I usually do) when close mic'ing a guitar amp...
Just listen where the mic would be. If it hurts you, change it.
guitar is not THAT complex a beast. take a DI if you want to run the POD as a last resort.If you love the sound of it, then use it! I have done TONS of heavy stuff where I rely on amp farm for an incredibly up front, totally "sesh" sounding rock guitar sound. Especially for a basic chunky guitar, that is not supposed to have too much "color" or overall "character" in a certain situation. Just heavy chunks with a bunch of presence and oomph... Amp farm will do that with about 34 seconds of setup. We are ready to record before the player is done tuning! That is crucial. Capture the moment. Amp farm is amazing for just getting going right away, and you can tailor the guitar sound to the mix later on, or reAmp, or whatever you want to do. It is amazing to out a nice drive pedal in the control room while reAmping and REALLY dial in the sound you want by listening through the recording chain, and get the sound exactly how you want it to be....

Okay, rant over...

[Brett Siler]

Also, a four-speaker cabinet can get weird when you close mic it. You might need to move the mic around and point it all over the place to get what you want. One trick is to turn the amp volume way up with an instrument plugged in, so you get buzz and hum (not feedback). It shouldn't be very loud. put on some headphones, monitoring the mic. Go and move the mic around until the buzz and hum sounds best, and leave the mic there. Using this method, one time I had a mic about 2 inches from the floor, pointing at it, and about 3 feet in front of the cabinet. It sounded great.

I use this technique and it takes 5 minutes at the most (usually alot less time) to find the right spot. I say give it a shot.

[SMC Productions]

Make the amp sound good THROUGH THE MIC.
it doesnt matter how kick ass you think the tone is when you are standing right in front of it. unless you are using your ears to record the sound...
What you want is something that sounds killing through your monitors, on the other side of the glass from the amp. if you have a long speaker cable, or a way to patch speaker level through the wall, you can put the head in near you, and adjust while listening through your mics.
Okay, rant over...

This is great, if you have room for the amps in the control room...which, at present I do not...but it works great. Another way to do it, though, not as good, is go to your tracking room, live room, whatever, put on headphones, and tweak the amp while listening to the headphone mix. It's NOT as good as hearing it through the control room monitors, but it helps sometimes, getting alot closer, if you are having problems.

[vvv]

Marshall tip: try turning down the "presence", if so equipped, and also the distortion - less can be heavier.

As far as cheap and useable mic's, I sometimes get surprisingly good results with an AKG C1000S, although more typically on Fender-type amps. But based on your decription of the problem, consider a cheap ribbon mic. I use an NOS-brand (Chinese-made, I believe) and there are a bunch of others out there at around US$150; UTSF here.

Room tip: try a hallway. And if it has various doorways off of it, try opening the doors various amounts...

Mix tip: consider blending the POD with the mic'd track.