An open question to the community..

[syrupcore]

I'm young, enthusiastic, eager to learn (and i realize that i have a lot to learn), and completely available, and i cant even find an internship to save my life!

I read threads here occasionally lamenting the sorry state of interns in studios. It's pretty frustrating. When I was 24 I called every studio in DC on multiple occasions to absolutely no avail. I was eager. ready to sleep on the couch eager.

maybe the problem is no one knows how to hire any more.

Any studio I'd consider interning at these days no longer has interns around because so many turned out poorly. Seriosuly, wtf? Studio Owners: Get a friggin book on how to hire people that don't suck. this board and the countless others like it should be evidence enough that there are quite a few people interested in learning the craft - go find them.



and for fucksake:

'everyman' has picked up a guitar and is attempting to make recordings.

and IS MAKING recordings. certainly of infinately less hi-fi sassiness than JR could bring to it but they're very much recordings. perhaps you were trying in your delightful way to say that studios are growing less useful? bullshit. Maybe everyman engineers lamenting the loss of labels dropping 500,000 for squeeky recordings of shitty music ought to retool thier business plans and stop whining about guitarists with cubase le.

sorry for the ot rant. it was from an ot post. [edit: this ended up in the middle when it should have been here.]

[Johnny B]

Records and music making are too common. Everyone can do it. It's not 'rare' anymore and the level of talent has dropped to obnoxious levels because 'everyman' has picked up a guitar and is attempting to make recordings.

Pretty sad really. It's called saturation and we're not talking the harmonic kind here.

It's not like this is new. In the 1980's kids bought 4-track cassette machines and made crappy recordings. Now kids buy an MBox and make crappy recordings. So, better gear is cheaper now, so more people buy it. And the internet has made distribution on a massive scale far easier. So, instead of your friends and other people in your immediate vicinity being the only ones having the opportunity (or the misfortune, as the case may be) to hear your recording, you can now stick it up on MySpace, or GarageBand, or wherever for the world to hear.

I'll take 100,000 crappy bands on MySpace over a world where we're only able to buy the unlistenable shit the major labels turn out. I'm at a point where I almost exclusively buy independently released music because the bands I like realized at some point that they're better off without a major label (whether it was early in their career or further along). And most of the ones who didn't got dropped by their label for not selling enough albums.

Of the ten best bands I've seen this year, only three are on majors, and two of the three started out making self-produced albums that were either self-released or on small labels. Two more started out the same way, moved to majors and were dropped (one after two albums, one after seven) to go back to self-releasing albums. Two more record for small indies and the last three are on labels run out of people's houses. And AFAIC, those last three bands are better musicians with more talent than some schmuck like Fergie, even though all of them pay the rent with "straight" jobs, not with money made from their music.

[TA]

.... Perhaps I can't teach anyone anything..that's hard to say. I also remember watching and working with engineers who were not really doing a job that sounded very good to me, but I also learned something from sessions like that as well, usually that I might not make the same choices that that engineer did, but I still learned a lot from them. I think I learned something on every session I ever did, and still do. Recording, mixing, interacting with clients, making hundreds of decisions every session..it's really an exciting environment to be involved in and absorb, at least to me.

I think most students (not all) historiclly have the same problem coming out of school with a mind set of "I`m certifided, I know everything there is to know" or .."need to know"... Instead of "ok, well I now have a better understanding and a foundation of some basics to prepare myself to ask the right questions, observe and continue my development" ... in the real world.

It makes me very sad, angry really, to hear about assistants you have come across that just dont seem to appriciate the opportunity they are in. Kills me to hear that they are just kicking back in the lounge and not taking the opportunity to be a fly on the wall!... Lack of passion, bored maybe?....

I`m just sitting here shaking my head when I think of all the resumes, interviews and all the times I beat myself up in my head to have only have that opportunity when I finished school nearly 5 years ago. I had some seriose financial problems after school (imagine that) so took on some odd jobs (some recording) until I landed a paying gig with a live audio company just over 3 years ago.... I`m working in audio, just not in the studio as much were I love to be..... anyway, I think what I was trying to say is that for the assistants\interns that are just going to kick back and have very little interest or appreciation for the opportunity that they have in front of them?.... they are least likly to move forward and on to a 30+ succesful career .... And by succesful I dont mean fam, fortune and noteriaty by your peers (although it`s nice to have your work appreciated). But successful by knowing in your heart that you are doing what you love, professionally.

"Do what you love and never work a day in your life" ...easier said than done. Maybe most people never discover there passion and therefore decide to go this direction for all the wrong reasons (pointed out in others posts)

I know for me coming out of high school (wow, almost 15years ago) it was all about playing music. I had little idea other than music and recording on a dual cassette or 4trk... I didn`t care to be a rock star or anything like that. I just enjoyed playing and being around it so much, it consumed me because of how I FELT when playing and creating, not where it could lead me or for anyone to see me, in fact I didn`t reall care for the spot light or anything like that...I was the guy in the back(Say,were is that other guitar sound coming from?) I played alot of gigs, but honestly I`d rather just site in a room with a band and jam, record, and work on projects .... but good luck trying to find a group of musician who DONT want to play live.... sorry, getting off track here.

[Zygomorph]

Here is my rather limited experience with an internship. I realize that not everybody's experience sucks so badly. "Why my internship was rather short-lived. By John Michael Swartz, Age 22. (To be read with an earnest tone.)"

Once I realized that I wouldn't be able to provide an appropriate level of interest or enthusiasm?as well as realizing that this particular internship was having a rather demoralizing effect upon me?I told them that I couldn't stay on, and I told them why. I was first incredibly put off by the inappropriateness of some of the tasks that were assigned to me, such as finishing their kitchenette by 1) sanding plaster (without proper ventilation or forewarning) and 2) applying polyurethane to the floor. As one just out of a very expensive college - but also out of a household where I was no stranger to home-improvement tasks - it was not so much that I felt "above" such work, but that I sorely needed 1) money and 2) a wiser investment of my time into, say, an internship which would actually provide what I felt to be a useful and empowering experience. Which was my second reason for leaving. The nature of the work being done and the manner in which it was done interested me very little.

If you're paying attention, I think that it becomes very clear whether or not an internship of this nature will or will not meet your expectations... caveat: should you have any expectations. Another intern with whom I was breathing plaster dust told me that at the recording conservatory he attended had prepared him for such an experience by repeating Pavlonian-like that it would "basically suck." He was commuting an hour every day to have an experience that would "basically suck." That more than basically sucks, in my opinion. It increasingly seems to me that the classic model by which audio engineers are integrated into the world of studio recording is often a confusing, painful and destitute one.

<i>too many people going underground
too many reaching for a piece of cake
too many people feeling pushed around
too many people waiting for that lucky break</i>

I think that it's largely an issue of lower or non-existent expectations on everybody's part. For my own, the most helpful thing has been to actually listen to the work of studios and engineers, and then to <i>write</i> to them enquiring after a sort of interview (this is actually very similar to the manner in which Sarah Lawrence students choose their classes each semester). Hopefully I'll find somebody whose work and whose character I can respect. Any old studio <i>just won't do</i>, and I get the feeling that there are very few that will. I learned the hard way the risk that you take when you go in for an internship just because it's there. I think that the determining factor for any of my future involvement with studios or engineers will be <i>their</i> sincere interest in what I already know and what I'd like to know and whether or not they'll be able to help me in exchange for my help. Rather than assuming that my providing them with free labor, in some retooled Reaganomical way, will cause their dubious knowledge to magically trickle down to me. If audio conservatories are just throwing their students into crap internships to teach them that working in the audio industry is crappy, then the whole thing is just one big cycle of crap. And I for one will have nothing to do with this or anybody complicit in it.

[codetta] I can understand the frustration with interns not showing interest or enthusiasm, especially <i>especially</i> if you (as a producer or engineer) feel that you are providing them with a relevant and worthwhile experience, and with all earnestness. And I certainily believe in having a good work-ethic. But perhaps it's also the case that there's a disconnect between what the experience can provide them and what they <i>actually</i> want to be doing. Good teachers and good students should always be figuring these things out, I think. Especially these days, where you simply <i>cannot</i> ignore the manifest legitemacy of independently recorded/distributed music and the waning (though not entirely illegitemate or unimportant by any means) role of the "fancy" studio. There's simply a wider world of recording out there than the traditional studio. Students and engineers (and importantly, artists) should really be paying very close attention to this. I think that we are in the midst of a time that will be remembered for its pioneers and vanguards, and for those who were left behind because they couldn't (or wouldn't) adapt.

[Artifex]

As a person intrested in pursuing music as a career ( I'm at a community college now, planning on transfering to Columbia in Chicago to major in sound engineering), I don't know whether to find this thread depressing or encouraging. On one hand, its sad that so many interns act that way, and it's sad that from this thread the prevailing opinion among the older and wiser seems to be that my generation is worthless. On the other hand, that means I have less competition and I get a chance to prove some people wrong.

I love music, and I love working on creative projects in 'the studio' as well. Ideally, I like the concept of being a producer; it combines alot of things I find enjoyable and plays to my stregnths.

The reality is, though, that I am going to school to prepare to find a job so I can make a living. I have decided that I want to make a living doing something I like, which leads me into sound engineering. I'd like to work in a studio, but mabye the job I find happens to involve live sound reinforcement, etc.. I won't mind too much. It's still much more enjoyable to me than any other career path I could think of.

I think thats where the difference in thought lies. Even now I think of playing and recording music as a JOB. That dosen't mean I don't enjoy jamming or writing and recording songs. But I approach the situations I am in with an active work ethic. I think the attitude of alot of my peers is that they can get paid to do what they like doing, not that they need to work and soak up information and experience like a sponge. They don't realize that the records they love and the songs they enjoy playing where recorded and written by people who were working their ass off. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I have that enthusiasim to learn. I am the fly on the wall. I can't wait for the chance.

[Kilroy]

i am at columbia right now. What community college are u going to?


Ive done stupid crap while interning. But i put so much time and energy into learning everything i can. I love recording and do as much as i can to learn more and get more experience. I see people in my production 1 and my intro to audio classes who dont know much about things yet, which is okay. But a lot of people are angry that they have to learn about EQ and what wave forms are and how mics and speakers work. All these people want to do is to get recording. I just think its weird that people dont want to learn the basics which will help them in their career.

[Artifex]

Awesome. I'd love to hear what you think of it. Send me a pm or something, or mabye we can make a thread and talk about it, make that open for people who are also intrested in columbia.

Currently I'm at Elgin Community College. Literally, I'm sitting the computer lab right now.

[trask]

The weird thing is that most of these kids know *who* I am on paper. They ask me lots of questions about what it was like to work with Hall and Oates, Judas Priest, Elton John, Cannibal Corpse and many others, and tell me how much they enjoy the records I've made (and that's very much appreciated of course) but they still don't want to come in and watch and - possibly - learn something.

Basically, what it comes down to in my mind, is that they're there for the wrong reasons. Like they want to be the next huge producer extraordinare, but don't want to have to work for it, they just expect it to be handed to them. And so, as it seems, that ties into the instant-gratification point made earlier. I'm sure a lot could be revealed by asking those kids "why do you want to record music?", because I'm thinking you'd end up with an answer like "I want to be famous and make a lot of money." Well, not exactly that, but I'm damn sure you probably wouldn't get the answer that I'd give, which is because I just generally love music, can't see my life without it, and think that I'd be happiest if I could be in the studio damn near every day of my life.

You just gotta sort them out, as with any "success" story, when people reflect they usually say "you could tell they were going to go somewhere because they had that determination/heart/energy/whatever..." Those truly passionate about it, will make something of it. Those would be the kids in the control room reading manuals if they got bored, not dis-engaging themselves. Hopefully you can talk to them, or talk to the studio owners, and suggest changes if need be.

wow, that's a rant. sorry, just my two cents. But it got me a little worked up, being that I'm interning, and enjoying it a ton, and can't get enough time in the studio, and it sucks to hear about the others on here that aren't even as fortunate as I am, because there's all those drones out there filling the positions. I can't ever see myself acting like that, I'm always looking at meters or trying to memorize the gear, or studying the patchbay, etc...

Anyway, thanks Neil. Good to have you here.

[joelpatterson]

I shudder to think the intern I would've made. Was, actually. And I feel sorry for the people who had to put up with me! I remember it like it was yesterday...(harp glissando)... I was "interning" at a radio station in San Francisco, answering the phones actually, but since no one ever called, I sat around alot, and when they did, they were goofy teenagers screaming at me. So the one time the station manager decided to drop in on me, he picked the day I was sorting through tapes for my own radio show, that night, at San Francisco State, and the guy blew his top. Obviously the intricacies of blending Franklin Roosevelt speeches and James Taylor was way beyond his ken. He was absolutely right, right all long--I thought his "radio station" was a despicable corporate hack operation, and he a complete sell-out and poser. I had some growing up to do--I had to stop scrambling off in a zillion directions, and calm down, and methodically follow something to an end. It would be years and years before I figured that out.

[Jon Nolan]

i cant really comment directly on what you have experienced, but maybe it has a lot to do with the way technology has changed things, or at least the perceived change that technology brings.

The average kid today probably got into recording with some kind of home digital setup, and the options they have available to them with that technology makes them feel more powerful than the kid 20 or 30 years ago using a 4 track or reel to reel. it maybe even breeds a sort of hubris about their skills. when they get into a professional studio environment, perhaps some of the novelty of working with the big boys on the big toys isnt there. they just see it as something to put on their resume or a way to network but arent too concerned about what they can learn.

That is just my guess about whats going on. Personally I would love the opportunity to intern at a real studio and if I did I would try to soak up everything I could, even if the dude was recording the types of bands i would never want to have to record.

yeah, i think this is my take too. some of the mystique is taken away with advancement in technology - nevermind the whole shakeup of the entire music industry from top to bottom.

and neil, if you ever come east boston or thereabouts, i'd be happy to stand by the tape machine and ask plenty of questions

best,
Jon

[wwittman]

In my view, what's lost is the SYSTEM of mentoring that the better studios always provided.

How many terrific engineers and producers came out of Trident or AIR or Record Plant?

It worked because it was top down. That is, the only way you got to do it was by getting to a place where it was done and hoping to WATCH people who already did it.
There's so MUCH to learn like that, even when you don't know you're learning anything.
And I quite agree with Neil's observation that sometimes noting to one's self that "I don't want to get a bass drum sound like Mike Stone's" is as valuable as seeing how Ken Scott gets the sound you DO like.

And studios expected to do that. Engineers expected to teach the next generation.
The Assistants taught the general dogsbodies and the engineers taught the assistants and the producers taught the engineers...


All that and more is lost if you "learn" on your own in a vacuum.
Without examples, without feedback, without INTERACTION.

I think now, people are SOLD an idea that they can simply buy what they need.
"Isn't it great? For only $400 you can have an ENTIRE STUDIO in your bedroom that would have been the envy of any professional only a few years ago".
Leaving aside that that's simply bollocks... the thing you can NEVER buy is the interaction.

As fun as it is to talk recording online with people, it's not the same as being there and watching and hearing while Roy Baker shoves faders around.


to me... THAT'S what's missing.

[AnalogElectric]

I've been a full-time engineer and studio owner for the last 12+ years. I didn't start out interning, I kept building up my gear, clients, and studio(s) over the years. I'll still put in a straight 30+ hour "day" if the session is still productive at that point.

I started accepting interns since 1997. Instead of asking them to scrub a toilet, I'll throw them at the console for a moment or two (a few hours during their first day) he or she will still ask if they can leave early.

I really try (force) them to do something even if they're ready or not. I try to stimulate and challenge them... just like I did for myself. I've freelanced at multi-million dollar studios that cost upwards $2000 a day but I had no experience with that studio but I picked it up pretty fast. After an hour of asking the 2nd Engineer how certain signal flow/console config works, I'd be completely fine. I have a huge amount of confidence, satisfaction, and fun, in that way.

One specific intern that I had, all she did was "hang out" with the band and get high. To me, that's not what an intern does, nor is it something I partake in. There were times where she'd be gone for some time and wonder where she was. She liked hanging out more than working. I guess that was fine considering I wasn't paying her but that was her first and last day of interning. If she was more pro-active in the control room, I would've thrown her some money but considering her lack of technical interest, that was the end of it.

There have been a couple (rare) instances where an intern and myself jelled. Where even though he or she might take off early, now and again, the work ethic was really strong. Same with being able to tackle my console "on-the-fly" as I sat in the back of the room in case he or she had questions. It didn't take long after that where they brought in their own clients and I became the 2nd Engineer. Those people are real highlights but it's very few and far in-between.

The last intern I had in, I gave him full-control but he knew nothing about mics choice. So what I did is choose the mics and I told him to set them in-place. He refused, making excuses like "I don't know how". I told him, "just go with your gut and let's see what happens".... btw - it was a session where he/we could take the time to experiment/take caution to the wind. He pretty much backed off.

Maybe I have too much expectations right off the bat but I like to challenge people especially if they're not ready for it. I like to push my interns into situations just to see how they handle it. The two interns out of over twenty have gone on to bigger and better things. Most of the rest gave up and moved on to other things.

I like to work my interns fast, obviously. I don't expect them to catch on right away; that's why I'm right there in case they have any questions.

I guess I look-back on the instances that made me who I am today, the visceral situations I thrust myself into, and apply that to possible future engineers.

I've found myself, in the past, becoming too comfortable with technique (no matter if it were my own studio or different). I need that challenge, that dynamic.

For me, the passion is still there. Even tho I have scared a bunch of people away from becoming an engineer or producer, I made their career-decision sooner than if were a place that had empty promises: coffee, cleaning, food-runs, etc before they got the chance to be upfront.

I don't expect them to pick it up right away, it's mostly a handle under pressure approach... I'm still there to answer questions or to take-over if need-be.

Even still, if I don't throw the intern toward a mic choice/placement decision, I'll give them the run of the tape machine, console, and talkback for a few overdubs. If they can't handle that after a good week or two of asking me questions or me showing them certain things (and if they like to "hang out" more than learn) they're wasting their time, my time, and the band's time.

The second anyone steps into my arena he or she needs to be there for the long haul... be productive... ready and willing to take a chance.

Watching and asking is one thing but to throw someone devil-may-care is priceless.

Like I said, I like a challenge and that's a majority of the work I do; from getting tones to mixing. Every session and client is different; meaning every single 150+ bands I've worked with have their own idea of how it should sound. That's my challenge even though I have my own push and pull ideas on what I do.

Anyways, I'm starting to get-off on my own tangent.

But, yes, I've noticed that most of the "new kids", if they're not already doing it on their own, expect a door to magically open just because they were lucky enough to get one-foot in. I really wish it were where a lot of thirsty, career-minded, potential engineers took it seriously but it's not cut-and-dry association fall-in. You gotta work harder and faster these days considering all the different recording schools and student ratio, as opposed to the studio's with internships.

Cut-throat and demanding... they really need to step-up to the challenge.

-- Adam Lazlo

[cgarges]

In my view, what's lost is the SYSTEM of mentoring that the better studios always provided... to me... THAT'S what's missing.

Applause!`

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[BABY BRITAIN]

Although i am a long-time 'lurker', i am also a first-time post-er, so i'm gonna preface this post really quickly and just say that i LOVE this board. I can't overstate how much i appreciate and benefit, on a daily basis, from all of your experience, creativity, and wisdom. It is greatly appreciated.

That being said: let me get back on topic. Firstly, let me just assure that there are still 'kids' (like me) who are extremely passionate about recording music. My only guess could be that maybe these 'fresh outta audio engineering school know it all' kids might not be the best candidates for interns. As an aspiring young engineer i would give my left ear to come sit with you on a session Neil! The same goes for anyone on this board, i don't care if you have a multi-million dollar studio or an mbox or 4 track in you basement. The way i figure it, every day is a chance to learn something new and improve my skills.


I've been strongly considering trying to find an internship, but get discouraged by the posts i see come up of kids looking to do the same thing but to no avail. This thread gives me have a little more hope because i see that people are still interested in finding interns with their hearts in it.

Sorry for the long-winded first time post... -Joe

P.S. If anyone in the southern ca. area wants someone to sit in on a session and ask questions, i'm there!

[the finger genius]

at every job i have ever worked, i've noticed good workers, and bad workers. you'll find people who enjoy their work, and are pleasant to be around. you'll also find people who make it obvious that they would much rather be doing their own thing.

during my time interning / assisting, i found myself becoming one of those bad workers, and trying to figure out why. i had always taken pride in my work ethic, i always loved music, and i loved recording, and all of a sudden i couldn't wait to get out of there each night.

finally, it hit me - i was working harder than i ever had before (not uncommon to put in a forty hour day) on music i didn't enjoy listening to, for less money than it was possible to live on, and in the first two years i worked at the studio, i don't ever remember hearing the words "thank you." (i'm sure it must have happened, but it was truly rare.) in fact, in my interview, the studio made it clear that they didn't need me, and that they could find a hundred people willing to take the job if i decided i didn't want to do it. at least in the studio i was working in, assistants were not treated well (unliveable wages, ridiculous expectaions, and a general lack of courtesy) and it resulted in most of our staff losing interest. i still keep in touch with most of my work buddies from this period, and for the most part we're happy, well adjusted folks again now that we're out of the system.

my recommendation: try and find out how a studio treats it's interns / assistants. somebody who feels appreciated, didn't just come off of another 140 hr, 7 day session, and can afford to live in an apt. with heat will probably do a much better job for you. if possible, give your business to those studios that make an effort to treat their assistants well.