Hi, Maybe some more experienced guys can give me some advice.
Give you a brief description of my status. Been working at the same studio for 3 years, started as intern and I am now the Chief engineer. I worked very hard and sacraficed alot to get here, won't even go into what those things were. I get major label clientel, great credits and contacts that are doing me good.
Finaly stable somewhat money wise(considering living in NYC is quite expensive) but, the management takes me for granted with out a doubt. For working with grammy winning artist's I get paid $20/hr. It's embarrising to admit and its something that really bothers me. Please I don't want to come off wrong, I know alot of people would do this for nothing at all to get to work with the artists I do but, give me a chance...
At times my rate will go to $25 and $30 but its rare and inconsistant. This is why I am the chief engineer because the engineer ahead of me left due to the rate problem and the fact we are on call 24/7/365. The affects it has on me with relationships is hard to deal with but, luckily I have an understanding partner.
I guess I'm looking for opinions of people within the industry who have possibly dealt with this situation before. Its coming to the end of the year and possibly have a management team that will be taking care of me but nothing is for certain and thats a whole other issue considering the trust factor. But I have been pushing the studio to setup a rate scale that when they get paid more so do I. Seems fair to me...I am in a position of power as well, I am the ONLY engineer they have at the moment. The other guy we have is still grasping assisting and is thrown to many times on engineering gigs and fucts them up, because he is obviously not ready. They do not hire from outside, they only take talent from the ground up(meaning won't hire another engineer thats already qualified, have to work your way up). So no one is going to be up to speed for a while, being my point.
The only option they have is an engineer who charges too much that rubs the clients the wrong way sometimes and also has selective hours of work time. So he could never cover the amount of hours I take on per week.
Ahhh. had to get that off my chest, there is alot more BS involved but this is the basic stuff. I love what I do, I just don't want to start hating where I am at. I am very greatful for what I have and know alot of people would like the oportunities I have gotten. Not looking for this thread to turn into a rate debate but I am just asking for some knowledge of people who have been there or people who have a positive opinion.
Ask for more by altimatum(never has worked with this management)? Or stay the course and see what happens?
Really appreciate your thoughts and opinions. I feel if theres any one to talk to its the people on this board that would know best, unfortunately family members and friends don't get the dynamics of my business.
Thank you once again.
Confused about where I am.
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JGriffin
- zen recordist
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Is that $20/hr for a full 40 hours a week? 'Cause I know a lot of engineers who are not making anywhere near that, especially if what they do is record music.
I know I wasn't making that much 3 years after being an intern. Maybe about half that.
But I don't know how the major label aspect changes things.
I know I wasn't making that much 3 years after being an intern. Maybe about half that.
But I don't know how the major label aspect changes things.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
Sounds to me like you're in a pretty good position to negotiate a better salary. Doesn't need to be an ultimatum, per se, just point out that you're having trouble making it work at your current pay scale, and are looking into some "other options".
If the situation is as you describe, and the management would rather see their business suffer rather than toss a couple extra bones your way, well then...
If the situation is as you describe, and the management would rather see their business suffer rather than toss a couple extra bones your way, well then...
Seems to me that its more about how you feel about the management and the rate issue is the final straw.
I wouldn`t give them an ultimatum just yet, but I would certainly look into other options. Give them every opportunity to retain you, but dont let them drag there feet at the sametime. See what other options you have before you reach the ultimatum point... But I`d give them the opportunity first, since they gave you one 3 years ago.
Good luck!
TA
I wouldn`t give them an ultimatum just yet, but I would certainly look into other options. Give them every opportunity to retain you, but dont let them drag there feet at the sametime. See what other options you have before you reach the ultimatum point... But I`d give them the opportunity first, since they gave you one 3 years ago.
Good luck!
TA
Last edited by TA on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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leftofthedial
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kayagum
- ghost haunting audio students
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Your situation is actually pretty straight forward to me....
Wages and pricing is simple. If you want to figure out how much you're worth (financially), evaluate your alternative options.
If you can find a higher paying job (all else being equal), get the new job.
If you can't find a higher paying job (all else being equal), shut up.
If you don't like your working situation, either negotiate the stuff you don't like (wages, hours, responsibilities, climate) or leave for a better gig. Better may mean a better recording gig, or it could be something like flipping burgers but at least you don't have to deal with your ogre boss or OSHA non-compliant working conditions.
If you know it's a less-than-optimal situation, but you know exactly why you're there and what you're getting out of the gig (experientially, educationally), then stick it out until it no longer serves you.
This is a conversation you should have every single day with yourself.
Wages and pricing is simple. If you want to figure out how much you're worth (financially), evaluate your alternative options.
If you can find a higher paying job (all else being equal), get the new job.
If you can't find a higher paying job (all else being equal), shut up.
If you don't like your working situation, either negotiate the stuff you don't like (wages, hours, responsibilities, climate) or leave for a better gig. Better may mean a better recording gig, or it could be something like flipping burgers but at least you don't have to deal with your ogre boss or OSHA non-compliant working conditions.
If you know it's a less-than-optimal situation, but you know exactly why you're there and what you're getting out of the gig (experientially, educationally), then stick it out until it no longer serves you.
This is a conversation you should have every single day with yourself.
I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Evan the not so positive joking...Like i said earlier this question is best answered by someone that has been around for a bit in a commerial studio studio in the big 3 but, never the less the things said so far have got me thinking and I thank you all.
This city is cut throat to say the least and once again realize people would take my job in a second. Just trying to figure out the next step to take in my career.
So thanks so far.
This city is cut throat to say the least and once again realize people would take my job in a second. Just trying to figure out the next step to take in my career.
So thanks so far.
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Professor
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You know your own situation better than any of us know it. But you also know full well what the pro recording world is like out there.
Open up the door to the studio and yell out, "who wants to be a pro engineer for $20/hour" and maybe a thousand guys will show up at the door. Hell, I would be one of them. And no matter how good you are, you have to be honest here and realize that at least 5-10% of those guys could probably step right in and do your job the same or maybe even better.
I respect that the management doesn't want to hire guys off the street, and that you feel like it's a pretty secure position. You can use that to some advantage, but don't try to overdo it, because in the end, you know that they could hire another guy off the street. And pushing too hard can easily drop you on the street, which isn't a good place to be if you're not prepared for it.
So I would suggest a tempered and careful bit of pushing rather than some kind of rash ultimatum. If you are going to give someone an ultimatum then you have to make sure they know that they stand to lose more than you do. Usually that means having another gig lined up and waiting, or enough free-lance offers that you can move into that line of work. But if you only have one month of savings, no free-lance gig offers, and no other studio waiting to snap you up the minute they can, then it's really you who can't afford to be without these guys, isn't it?
If it were me, I would be working towards some guaranteed base-pay. Because you also have to consider that two or three months from now, the market may turn, and you'll only be doing 10-20 paid hours per week.
So, OK, for me, I would say that a $5/hour raise for 40 hours a week would be a $200 per week boost. That might be enough, or it might not be. But I would probably negotiate getting a base rate of $200-400 per week that is a guarantee (whether work is booked or not) and that the regular $20 an hour rate would ride on top of that. I would further explain to them that the extra base pay is for the 24-hour on-call status. If they don't want to do it, then you are no longer going to be on call. And then offer to put it into the form of a contract that promises they will pay that rate and that you will not leave their employment for maybe a 1-year period.
There are ways to negotiate that will further endear you to the management, but then there are also ways to negotiate that will alienate, threaten and annoy the management. In the end, I think the negotiating process is best if both sides recognize how much they need each other, and if the working relationship grows stronger.
-Jeremy
Open up the door to the studio and yell out, "who wants to be a pro engineer for $20/hour" and maybe a thousand guys will show up at the door. Hell, I would be one of them. And no matter how good you are, you have to be honest here and realize that at least 5-10% of those guys could probably step right in and do your job the same or maybe even better.
I respect that the management doesn't want to hire guys off the street, and that you feel like it's a pretty secure position. You can use that to some advantage, but don't try to overdo it, because in the end, you know that they could hire another guy off the street. And pushing too hard can easily drop you on the street, which isn't a good place to be if you're not prepared for it.
So I would suggest a tempered and careful bit of pushing rather than some kind of rash ultimatum. If you are going to give someone an ultimatum then you have to make sure they know that they stand to lose more than you do. Usually that means having another gig lined up and waiting, or enough free-lance offers that you can move into that line of work. But if you only have one month of savings, no free-lance gig offers, and no other studio waiting to snap you up the minute they can, then it's really you who can't afford to be without these guys, isn't it?
If it were me, I would be working towards some guaranteed base-pay. Because you also have to consider that two or three months from now, the market may turn, and you'll only be doing 10-20 paid hours per week.
So, OK, for me, I would say that a $5/hour raise for 40 hours a week would be a $200 per week boost. That might be enough, or it might not be. But I would probably negotiate getting a base rate of $200-400 per week that is a guarantee (whether work is booked or not) and that the regular $20 an hour rate would ride on top of that. I would further explain to them that the extra base pay is for the 24-hour on-call status. If they don't want to do it, then you are no longer going to be on call. And then offer to put it into the form of a contract that promises they will pay that rate and that you will not leave their employment for maybe a 1-year period.
There are ways to negotiate that will further endear you to the management, but then there are also ways to negotiate that will alienate, threaten and annoy the management. In the end, I think the negotiating process is best if both sides recognize how much they need each other, and if the working relationship grows stronger.
-Jeremy
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Jeremy Garber
- suffering 'studio suck'
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So $20/hr is good pay for an engineer? I'm really suprised. Considering you take work from major labels and work/live in New York... I'm just suprised. Do you not get even a small amount of royalties from work you''ve done? Based on your experience I am in no position to give you advice. I should be asking you for some. However, money isn't everything. If you can make enough to live decently (note not lavishly) and truely love what you are doing and the people you work with, I wouldn't be complaining.
However, it sounds to me like it's more than the money. It sounds to me like you have a general dislike for your current work environment. I would start looking for other places to work but stick it out at your current job for as long as you can until you find something else. Just keep doing your best at work, and when you find a replacement job ask your employer to write a recommendation as you put in your notice of leave.
When you wake up in the morning and dread going to work it's going to really effect your general mood and other parts of your life. I've been through that too many times- forcing myself to go into a job that I had become to hate thinking there were no other options out there. There are other options. I may not be living the high life, but I do really enjoy the work I do now and my boss- the only other person I work with. I am making more than I have before so that's always good.
I've done a little pro audio work in the past setting up and tearing down stages, lights, and PAs for concerts and conferences. During the event, we would be on call in case anything fell over or something. We were always paid for it by the hour. There were weekends we pretty much worked straight, catching a couple hours sleep on the office floor of the wearhouse, but the pay at the end made it worth it.
However, it sounds to me like it's more than the money. It sounds to me like you have a general dislike for your current work environment. I would start looking for other places to work but stick it out at your current job for as long as you can until you find something else. Just keep doing your best at work, and when you find a replacement job ask your employer to write a recommendation as you put in your notice of leave.
When you wake up in the morning and dread going to work it's going to really effect your general mood and other parts of your life. I've been through that too many times- forcing myself to go into a job that I had become to hate thinking there were no other options out there. There are other options. I may not be living the high life, but I do really enjoy the work I do now and my boss- the only other person I work with. I am making more than I have before so that's always good.
I've done a little pro audio work in the past setting up and tearing down stages, lights, and PAs for concerts and conferences. During the event, we would be on call in case anything fell over or something. We were always paid for it by the hour. There were weekends we pretty much worked straight, catching a couple hours sleep on the office floor of the wearhouse, but the pay at the end made it worth it.
Thinking back to the days of the Walter Sear interview in TapeOp, it seems kind of lamentable that the days of the house engineer are over. Find a way to make your managers realize that you are the reason the clients keep coming back, not the gear etc... and then make them give you a reasonable increase.
Of course that assumes a lot so....find a back up gig first for bargaining leverage.
Of course that assumes a lot so....find a back up gig first for bargaining leverage.
Slider wrote:"we figured you'd want to use your drum samples and reamp through your amps anyway, so we didn't bother taking much time to get sounds".
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leftofthedial
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$20/hr isn't good pay at all. But in an industry saturated with supply and short on demand, I'll bet you'll find a lot more audio enginereers who would do it for half that. Heck, I rent my studio out to freelancers all the time that only charge their clients enough to give themselves a 10-15/hr cut and only once in 4 years did one charge enough to give himself 20/hr.So $20/hr is good pay for an engineer?
Sadly, I don't see supply ever going down either, but demand, that has no where to go but down. Soon it will be pay to engineer.
You guys are depressing! For fucks sake, if you've got good "people skills" and are better at engineering than everyone else, you can get more done faster, ultimately a better sounding product and an improved recording experience to boot. This is worth something. This will always be worth something to some people. You just have to make sure you're always on the top of your game.
Making Efforts and Forging Ahead Courageously! Keeping Honest and Making Innovations Perpetually!
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leftofthedial
- pushin' record
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Well, only one person can be better than everybody else, and I'm pretty damn sure that person is not me. #1 gets paid 1,000,000 per album! The rest of us get to scrap around for $20/hr..... Sadly, since I own my place, some months I don't even get to pay myself that. Good thing I've got those EE & CS degrees to fall back on.dynomike wrote:You guys are depressing! For fucks sake, if you've got good "people skills" and are better at engineering than everyone else, you can get more done faster, ultimately a better sounding product and an improved recording experience to boot. This is worth something. This will always be worth something to some people. You just have to make sure you're always on the top of your game.
I'm certainly not saying that *i'm* the guy who's better than anyone else. I usually get paid $15-$20/hr but I am realistically at the bottom of my career ladder and intend to be better than everyone else before I'm old and broke. I should clarify that by "everyone else" I don't mean the whole world... I mean whoever is in your market. Your scene, your competition. Once you're at the top of that heap, its time to move into a scene / clientelle where you can continue to grow.
I truly think that even today, cream rises to the top or whatever, and continued good work (and marketing/people skills aptitude) will not go unrewarded. I hope this whole idea doesn't come off as arrogant or idealistic to some people - I just think that having an optimistic and confident attitude is essential to success in an industry where everyone tells you that you'll fail.
I truly think that even today, cream rises to the top or whatever, and continued good work (and marketing/people skills aptitude) will not go unrewarded. I hope this whole idea doesn't come off as arrogant or idealistic to some people - I just think that having an optimistic and confident attitude is essential to success in an industry where everyone tells you that you'll fail.
Making Efforts and Forging Ahead Courageously! Keeping Honest and Making Innovations Perpetually!
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cgarges
- zen recordist
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Rocky,
Your situation sounds a lot like mine about five years ago. Great studio, great staff, shitty boss, shitty pay. One day, our boss gave us all an ultimatum that he thought would make him look like he was in charge. Unfortunately for him, we called his bluff and both of us full-time engineers quit on him.
Now, it took a lot of looking at my schedule and what I had booked in the upcoming months to make that decision, but I was prepared. He had made it difficult for me to book projects there (at the studio where I worked--how fucked-up is that?) so I had been booking a few things at other studios and when he gave us the ultimatum, I had enough other stuff booked to make it work. If I had quit and tried to get another staff job, I probably would have been out of luck and possibly not doing this full-time now.
Quitting that job was the best thing I could have done at the time (well that and starting to date the girl I would eventually marry), but I wouldn't have been able to do it had I not had those other ducks in a row. It was amazing to me how much my general attitude and love of music improved and I didn't realize what sort of funk working for this jackass had put me in. Granted, every two weeks I got a predictable paycheck at that studio and I'm not really making THAT much more per year than I was back then, but the good months are much better than they were, even if the bad months are worse. In any case, I'm about a billion times happier.
Take a look at your situation and figure out if the time is right. If it's not, try to start seeing what you can do to make it right.
Hope it works out to make you happy.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Your situation sounds a lot like mine about five years ago. Great studio, great staff, shitty boss, shitty pay. One day, our boss gave us all an ultimatum that he thought would make him look like he was in charge. Unfortunately for him, we called his bluff and both of us full-time engineers quit on him.
Now, it took a lot of looking at my schedule and what I had booked in the upcoming months to make that decision, but I was prepared. He had made it difficult for me to book projects there (at the studio where I worked--how fucked-up is that?) so I had been booking a few things at other studios and when he gave us the ultimatum, I had enough other stuff booked to make it work. If I had quit and tried to get another staff job, I probably would have been out of luck and possibly not doing this full-time now.
Quitting that job was the best thing I could have done at the time (well that and starting to date the girl I would eventually marry), but I wouldn't have been able to do it had I not had those other ducks in a row. It was amazing to me how much my general attitude and love of music improved and I didn't realize what sort of funk working for this jackass had put me in. Granted, every two weeks I got a predictable paycheck at that studio and I'm not really making THAT much more per year than I was back then, but the good months are much better than they were, even if the bad months are worse. In any case, I'm about a billion times happier.
Take a look at your situation and figure out if the time is right. If it's not, try to start seeing what you can do to make it right.
Hope it works out to make you happy.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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