I took some mixes over to a mentor type and listened to them and they were god awful. It was really embarassing - especially since I thought I'd left the studio with something I could show-off. The hi-hats and cymbals too over-powering. Too much reverb. Snare sounded really really weak. Bass guitar was too low. The vocals sounded really dull. All this among other things.
I've done decent mixes before - I'm hoping this is just a fluke.
I was/am EXTREMELY disheartened by this - I kinda wonder if I just maybe don't have the ear for this. Listening to other people's examples, I know it's not the lack of gear - I've heard much MUCH better sounds from other tapeop-ers with a $100 condenser and an M-box.
I've been doing it for 10 years and had my shingle out for 8 doing quick-n-dirty demos for local bands on the cheap, but it just seems like I can't break into a higher-level. Maybe I'm just burned out and need a break.
Is it time to hang it up?
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Garthplinko
- gettin' sounds
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:05 am
Is it time to hang it up?
"Just because you don't like it don't mean it ain't no good."
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;ivlunsdystf
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3290
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:15 am
- Location: The Great Frontier of the Southern Anoka Sand Plain
- Contact:
I'm sitting here putting the final touches on our bands cd before I send it to get mastered.
I started mixing and recording almost 1 1/2 yrs ago, I have every cd that I've burned to listen on other sources, I'm guessing it's about 150 cd's!
When I first started I did'nt know shit, I'd played music for a long time but never recorded or mixed myself...I can't begin to say how many times I was about to hang it all up and throw the hard drive out the window..
Just keep plugging away go back to your friends play the cd sit down take notes and start it again...like all of os morons! Welcme to the club brotha.
I started mixing and recording almost 1 1/2 yrs ago, I have every cd that I've burned to listen on other sources, I'm guessing it's about 150 cd's!
When I first started I did'nt know shit, I'd played music for a long time but never recorded or mixed myself...I can't begin to say how many times I was about to hang it all up and throw the hard drive out the window..
Just keep plugging away go back to your friends play the cd sit down take notes and start it again...like all of os morons! Welcme to the club brotha.
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MASSIVE Mastering
- buyin' a studio
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:09 pm
- Location: Chicago (Schaumburg / Hoffman Est.) IL
- Contact:
"The Doctor" would prescribe a few bass traps and call him in the morning.
John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering
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MoreSpaceEcho
- zen recordist
- Posts: 6677
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:15 am
pffft...try every song i've ever mixed. there's always a point where i think 'this is all completely horrible and i don't know what to do to fix it.' and then you just start turning things up and it's fine.Tatertot wrote:Don't we all feel this way every few weeks?
anyway garth, that doesn't sound like the end of the world...turn down the overheads and reverb, turn up the snare and bass, put some high end on the vocals...easy.
what did your mentor have to say?
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love_tempo
- studio intern
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:58 am
I think this is a case of hearing something through someone elses ears. When you have an expert there listening you will listen very critically yourself. The only thing worse is playing an instrument in front of somebody who is a complete master of that instrument.
Fact is, if you can hear exactly what's wrong with it then you are most of the way toward solving it. So why give up?
From a non-gear POV he might also have a better room with better treatment. That might be one of the many practical reasons he is better than you
Also, are you listening to reference material before getting to work? If not, why not and did you listen to other material before listening to yours?
Fact is, if you can hear exactly what's wrong with it then you are most of the way toward solving it. So why give up?
From a non-gear POV he might also have a better room with better treatment. That might be one of the many practical reasons he is better than you
Also, are you listening to reference material before getting to work? If not, why not and did you listen to other material before listening to yours?
When I start mixing a project I select two or three CDs that I use as references. I play a track or two often throughout the mixing process so I'm brought back to reality. Since I started doing this I don't get to the end of a project and have that "Oh shit" revelation. I know my mix sucks all the way through!
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kayagum
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3490
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm
- Location: Saint Paul, MN
Another idea from the "take a break" category....
Stop mixing rock albums for a while. Try other genres- classical, latin, jazz, hip hop, anything else besides rock.
Better yet, go see different music, in different venues (not just clubs- concert halls, churches, outdoors) and imagine yourself trying to mix it.
Your ears will get a break. You'll adjust to hearing the room again. You'll think differently about how to capture sounds and instruments.
It will change how you record for the better. Think of it as cross-training your ears.
Stop mixing rock albums for a while. Try other genres- classical, latin, jazz, hip hop, anything else besides rock.
Better yet, go see different music, in different venues (not just clubs- concert halls, churches, outdoors) and imagine yourself trying to mix it.
Your ears will get a break. You'll adjust to hearing the room again. You'll think differently about how to capture sounds and instruments.
It will change how you record for the better. Think of it as cross-training your ears.
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Professor
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3307
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 2:11 pm
- Location: I have arrived... but where the hell am I?
This may sound a bit harsh at first, but stick with me.
After 10 years at this, you should be the expert on mixing. Especially if 8 of those years were in paid service to other musicians. Those 8 years in particular should have been a constant progression towards better quality, better gear, better understanding of the art and the science, and a better sonic product on each subsequent recording.
If that hasn't been the case, then something, somewhere along the way has gone in the wrong direction.
And now you have a decision to make to either hang it up or find out where things went astray and fix it.
You know your own situation better than any of us can ever know it. You know if this is just one bum mix, or if this has been a progressive downward spiral, or if maybe it's just been really hit and miss and you're frustrated by the unpredictability of the whole process.
Someone up there mentioned the fixes of, 'turning down overheads, bringing up the snare, etc'. That's a reasonable enough response, except of course that it should bring up the question of why you didn't hear that yourself at your place. After all, if you're doing this regularly as a pro, then in theory your mixes should leave your place a lot closer to done.
Now I might consider possibilities like how long the session was before that mix was "done", and whether your ears might have been shot, whether it was a bad day, and whether you might have noticed those flaws over the next day or two and fixed them. But I may be right or wrong on any or all of those reasons, and only you can say if one of those fits.
Someone else mentioned monitors and acoustic treatments. Well that should be a pretty obvious explanation, and it's among the first things that came to my mind. I don't know what your monitor and room situation is, but I hope that it has been constantly (if slowly) improving over the last 8 years. And let's face it, we can sit around saying, "you have to know your monitors well and use lots of reference mixes all the time" and all that crap, but over the course of 8 paid years, those quaint little flaws that you know you have to work around or anticipate may have actually become a hinderance that should be fixed if they haven't been already.
Which brings me around to what you said, "I know it's not the lack of gear...."
Well that leaves you with a very difficult decision then, doesn't it? Because if it really ain't the gear, then what does that leave?
But let's consider the gear for a minute. Is it posible that some guys can take a $100 mic and an M-Box and create the most amazing album you've ever heard. Well yeah, of course it is. But is it likely (or even possible) that they will continue to produce astounding productions year after year, with different bands and different sounds with that setup. Come on man, you know that isn't how it works. Every time someone asks for "how do I do blank " questions, the answer always starts with, "it depends..." Every recording situation is different, and what works for one guy alone in his bedroom recording his own voice and 500 guitar overdubs on top of looped drum samples is not going to work the first time a 4 piece acoustic jazz groups with drums, piano, bass and sax wants him to record them all live.
Consider this analogy: Some guy has a '76 Ford Econoline van, and one day the light turns green at an intersection and he floors it and races ahead and beats a Mustang coming off the line and reaching the next light before it changes. He feels pretty good about that. Maybe a couple weeks, months, or years later, the same thing happens against a Porsche. And he spends the next 8 years driving that old van, and getting really good at parallel parking, and hauling gear, and he's the best damn driver you've ever seen. Women want to be with him, men wish they could be him, and pay him to teach their wives and daughters how to drive, he's so good at what he does. And he feels pretty good, so he tries to take another Porsche at the line, and he loses. Then he tries for a Mustang and can't beat him. Then some little punk in a Metro catches him off guard and takes him at the line with all three cylinders buzzing like angry gnats.
Did he suddenly become a bad driver? No, probably not. Should he give it all up, and maybe just go back to walking everywhere?
No, it's the gear stupid! The old van serves some purposes well. It hauls gear to gigs like that Porsche couldn't ever dream - but it ain't a race car, and neither is it a luxury car, and neither is it the right kind of car to haul horses or cattle, nor the right kind of car to take the wedding party from the church to the reception.
What it does well, it does very well, and what it wasn't designed to do, it just plain doesn't do well at all.
So here is where your decision comes in to play for your current problem...
You are either the driver... or you are the van.
And I can't tell you which is which. Only you can tell you that. And if it's really you that is the problem, then you owe it to your clients to either get the engine overhauled, replace the shocks, brakes, tires, and maybe get a fresh coat of paint... or just get that piece of crap old van off the road before it hurts somebody's career or wallet.
And the funny thing is that if it's not you, and it is just the gear, then the same advice holds true.
Isn't that crazy?
If this is all just one fluke that has you down, than none of this matters, and you're over-reacting.
But if this is a pervasive problem (and you know if it is or isn't) then you have to decide who gets the overhaul, your head or your gear.
If it's your head, then go back to the beginning and re-learn the basics. You may have lost sight of the simple ways to make a good drumset sound because you've become too enamoured with fancy tricks, and 'weird techniques', or maybe you just spend too much time on one instrument to the detriment of others. Lots of guitarists will deliver great guitar tracks over really bad drums, and vice-versa. If you don't think you could mentor a newbie who is where you were 10 years ago, and if you don't think you have a lot to teach them, and that you could show them how to be a great engineer, then maybe that's the place to start.
If it's your gear, then look at the monitoring situation, the room, the acoustics, and how you listen to your system and to music in general. (good monitors do start at your ears, after all.) Maybe you need a set of full-range large monitors to really hear what's going on. Maybe it's time for a pair of near-fields that are worth more than $1k. Maybe you do need bass traps and diffusors and other treatments for the room. Maybe you need better microphones and better acoustics in the live room so the basic tracks sound good without a bunch of dickin' around with EQ and other processing. And as for how you listen, maybe you need to consider shorter sessions, more silence breaks, more listening for fun on the studio speakers (during the off-time), and maybe even a trip to the audiologist. Doing this for 10 years means you're also 10 years older than you were, and your hearing does change over time.
So there's my way more than two cents - as usual.
I hope you don't end up feeling like packing it in is the only solution, but you'll know what is right.
Hopefully there will just be another great driver behind the wheel in a really sweet ride out there really soon.
-Jeremy
After 10 years at this, you should be the expert on mixing. Especially if 8 of those years were in paid service to other musicians. Those 8 years in particular should have been a constant progression towards better quality, better gear, better understanding of the art and the science, and a better sonic product on each subsequent recording.
If that hasn't been the case, then something, somewhere along the way has gone in the wrong direction.
And now you have a decision to make to either hang it up or find out where things went astray and fix it.
You know your own situation better than any of us can ever know it. You know if this is just one bum mix, or if this has been a progressive downward spiral, or if maybe it's just been really hit and miss and you're frustrated by the unpredictability of the whole process.
Someone up there mentioned the fixes of, 'turning down overheads, bringing up the snare, etc'. That's a reasonable enough response, except of course that it should bring up the question of why you didn't hear that yourself at your place. After all, if you're doing this regularly as a pro, then in theory your mixes should leave your place a lot closer to done.
Now I might consider possibilities like how long the session was before that mix was "done", and whether your ears might have been shot, whether it was a bad day, and whether you might have noticed those flaws over the next day or two and fixed them. But I may be right or wrong on any or all of those reasons, and only you can say if one of those fits.
Someone else mentioned monitors and acoustic treatments. Well that should be a pretty obvious explanation, and it's among the first things that came to my mind. I don't know what your monitor and room situation is, but I hope that it has been constantly (if slowly) improving over the last 8 years. And let's face it, we can sit around saying, "you have to know your monitors well and use lots of reference mixes all the time" and all that crap, but over the course of 8 paid years, those quaint little flaws that you know you have to work around or anticipate may have actually become a hinderance that should be fixed if they haven't been already.
Which brings me around to what you said, "I know it's not the lack of gear...."
Well that leaves you with a very difficult decision then, doesn't it? Because if it really ain't the gear, then what does that leave?
But let's consider the gear for a minute. Is it posible that some guys can take a $100 mic and an M-Box and create the most amazing album you've ever heard. Well yeah, of course it is. But is it likely (or even possible) that they will continue to produce astounding productions year after year, with different bands and different sounds with that setup. Come on man, you know that isn't how it works. Every time someone asks for "how do I do blank " questions, the answer always starts with, "it depends..." Every recording situation is different, and what works for one guy alone in his bedroom recording his own voice and 500 guitar overdubs on top of looped drum samples is not going to work the first time a 4 piece acoustic jazz groups with drums, piano, bass and sax wants him to record them all live.
Consider this analogy: Some guy has a '76 Ford Econoline van, and one day the light turns green at an intersection and he floors it and races ahead and beats a Mustang coming off the line and reaching the next light before it changes. He feels pretty good about that. Maybe a couple weeks, months, or years later, the same thing happens against a Porsche. And he spends the next 8 years driving that old van, and getting really good at parallel parking, and hauling gear, and he's the best damn driver you've ever seen. Women want to be with him, men wish they could be him, and pay him to teach their wives and daughters how to drive, he's so good at what he does. And he feels pretty good, so he tries to take another Porsche at the line, and he loses. Then he tries for a Mustang and can't beat him. Then some little punk in a Metro catches him off guard and takes him at the line with all three cylinders buzzing like angry gnats.
Did he suddenly become a bad driver? No, probably not. Should he give it all up, and maybe just go back to walking everywhere?
No, it's the gear stupid! The old van serves some purposes well. It hauls gear to gigs like that Porsche couldn't ever dream - but it ain't a race car, and neither is it a luxury car, and neither is it the right kind of car to haul horses or cattle, nor the right kind of car to take the wedding party from the church to the reception.
What it does well, it does very well, and what it wasn't designed to do, it just plain doesn't do well at all.
So here is where your decision comes in to play for your current problem...
You are either the driver... or you are the van.
And I can't tell you which is which. Only you can tell you that. And if it's really you that is the problem, then you owe it to your clients to either get the engine overhauled, replace the shocks, brakes, tires, and maybe get a fresh coat of paint... or just get that piece of crap old van off the road before it hurts somebody's career or wallet.
And the funny thing is that if it's not you, and it is just the gear, then the same advice holds true.
Isn't that crazy?
If this is all just one fluke that has you down, than none of this matters, and you're over-reacting.
But if this is a pervasive problem (and you know if it is or isn't) then you have to decide who gets the overhaul, your head or your gear.
If it's your head, then go back to the beginning and re-learn the basics. You may have lost sight of the simple ways to make a good drumset sound because you've become too enamoured with fancy tricks, and 'weird techniques', or maybe you just spend too much time on one instrument to the detriment of others. Lots of guitarists will deliver great guitar tracks over really bad drums, and vice-versa. If you don't think you could mentor a newbie who is where you were 10 years ago, and if you don't think you have a lot to teach them, and that you could show them how to be a great engineer, then maybe that's the place to start.
If it's your gear, then look at the monitoring situation, the room, the acoustics, and how you listen to your system and to music in general. (good monitors do start at your ears, after all.) Maybe you need a set of full-range large monitors to really hear what's going on. Maybe it's time for a pair of near-fields that are worth more than $1k. Maybe you do need bass traps and diffusors and other treatments for the room. Maybe you need better microphones and better acoustics in the live room so the basic tracks sound good without a bunch of dickin' around with EQ and other processing. And as for how you listen, maybe you need to consider shorter sessions, more silence breaks, more listening for fun on the studio speakers (during the off-time), and maybe even a trip to the audiologist. Doing this for 10 years means you're also 10 years older than you were, and your hearing does change over time.
So there's my way more than two cents - as usual.
I hope you don't end up feeling like packing it in is the only solution, but you'll know what is right.
Hopefully there will just be another great driver behind the wheel in a really sweet ride out there really soon.
-Jeremy
Dude, don't quit. Trust me, I think this from time to time but honestly, what else are you going to do? You know what they say, music picks you, you don't pick it.
Let me add one more thing to the comments above. Everytime I have ever worked extra hard on a mix for some reason, I have always psyched myself out. The one time I posted a rock mix on Tape Op, I had worked my ass off on it. I mean, you know it's Tape Op and I love this forum, I wanted feedback but I didn't want to put up something that sucks. And of course it totally did. The comments that came back were honest and as soon as I read them and listened back to the mix, I was like "why the hell didn't I hear that. It's so obvious?!"
So anyway, it could also be that you were going for something that would really satisfy yourself and you could show off and you maybe started psyching yourself out? If that's the case, no harm no foul. You'll hit a home run next time.
Let me add one more thing to the comments above. Everytime I have ever worked extra hard on a mix for some reason, I have always psyched myself out. The one time I posted a rock mix on Tape Op, I had worked my ass off on it. I mean, you know it's Tape Op and I love this forum, I wanted feedback but I didn't want to put up something that sucks. And of course it totally did. The comments that came back were honest and as soon as I read them and listened back to the mix, I was like "why the hell didn't I hear that. It's so obvious?!"
So anyway, it could also be that you were going for something that would really satisfy yourself and you could show off and you maybe started psyching yourself out? If that's the case, no harm no foul. You'll hit a home run next time.
[Asked whether his shades are prescription or just to look cool]
Guy: Well, I am the drummer.
Guy: Well, I am the drummer.
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