Using Phase Relationships In Drum Mixing

christiannokes · Post by **christiannokes** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:47 pm

I got my hands on the Phasetone plugin. I have been using it to mix drums and I am amazed at the stereo imaging I can get with it.

I finally understand how some of the albums I have listened to can get something to sound like it is way left or right, as opposed to just sounding like it is panned hard left or right- completely different story.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of experiences you guys have had with this concept. It seems like a very powerful tool to have.

jebjerome · Post by **jebjerome** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:49 pm

So, are you putting it on a stereo buss then? Please explain more how you're using it. Thanks.

christiannokes · Post by **christiannokes** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:27 pm

What I've been doing (since I got it earlier today) is I push the blend fader all the way up to 100% and keep the phase at 0 (as opposed to 90 or 180).

In this case I am only using the Phasetone on the tom track, not on the stereo bus.

Then I've been changing the delay on the Left side (L).

The more I increase the value, the more the stereo image moves to the left with the particular tracks I have.

It's cool because all of my tracks are panned to the very middle, but the sound seems to go more left and left and left the more I increase the delay value.

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:23 am

I don't know how the plug in works but the Littlelabs IBP works by "slowing down" a region of the frequency spectrum via the implementation of an "all pass" filter... I would guess this plug in is some sort of digital approximation of what can be made to occur in the analog domain... the thing is that the analog unit is all about "relationships" in phase between signals... and if that is happening in the digital domain you have the added anomaly of a minimum of 1 sample's worth of processing time [which further fucks with phase relationships].

Bill @ Irie Lab · Post by **Bill @ Irie Lab** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:05 am

Delay = phase change

Varying both parameters may yield unexpected results.

Use your ears!

Cheers,

Bill

Mark Alan Miller · Post by **Mark Alan Miller** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:20 am

christiannokes wrote:What I've been doing (since I got it earlier today) is I push the blend fader all the way up to 100% and keep the phase at 0 (as opposed to 90 or 180).

In this case I am only using the Phasetone on the tom track, not on the stereo bus.

Then I've been changing the delay on the Left side (L).

The more I increase the value, the more the stereo image moves to the left with the particular tracks I have.

It's cool because all of my tracks are panned to the very middle, but the sound seems to go more left and left and left the more I increase the delay value.

As you're not using the plug as anything more than a fine-controllable delay as far as I can tell (leaving the phase setting at 0 and only twiddling delay times) you're simply playing with the Haas effect which give the brain localization cues based only on arrival time, with no amplitude cues to match. Panning a mono track uses only amplitude cues, inversely. Spaced-pair (and even to some degree, near-coicident pair) micing techniques use both.

You can do this, by the way, by simply using a delay on one channel or the other. A delay that can go finer than 1ms works best. Use the delay on the channel you don't want to feel like the source.

Cool stuff, but the potential downside is some nasty comb-filtering when summed to mono.

Bill @ Irie Lab · Post by **Bill @ Irie Lab** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:03 am

To clairify my ealier post-

delay between tracks (or their mic to board feed) will result in phase changes.

While (as Mark pointed out) delays relative to the stereo channels will also cause location perception changes and may cause filtering or drop outs or unwanted re-inforcements when collapsed to mono.

Bill

christiannokes · Post by **christiannokes** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:27 pm

I'm sorry I'm stupid. I meant that the Right side is at 180 and the left is at 0.

farview · Post by **farview** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:43 am

christiannokes wrote:I'm sorry I'm stupid. I meant that the Right side is at 180 and the left is at 0.

Hit the mono button and that track will completely disappear.

@?,*???&? · Post by **@?,*???&?** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:26 am

I've got this plugin that screws with the phase too- it's the DUY Wide plug. Somehow effective at times. I only find myself pulling the trigger with it on hip hop as the music is usually so bland it needs the help.

As in the previous post, be absolutely certain to mind your mono compatibility.

Instead of even using a single plugin like the one you mention, use a simple delay and achieve the same result. 1' = 1ms of timeshift.

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Using Phase Relationships In Drum Mixing

Using Phase Relationships In Drum Mixing

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