First Impressions of the TOFT ATB - 16

japmn · Post by **japmn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:51 am

Made in China.

Jon Nolan · Post by **Jon Nolan** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:35 am

raymond,

sorry to hear of your woes! thanks for chiming in. hope you get it all squared away...

cheers,
jon

Recycled_Brains · Post by **Recycled_Brains** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:16 pm

EDIT: jumped to conclusions before hearing both sides of argument. maybe it was a bad day at work?

-ryan

Red Rockets Glare · Post by **Red Rockets Glare** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:25 pm

I forgot to mention that when we hooked the TOFT board up to their power supply at the shop the VU meters wouldn't light up, and they don't at my studio now either. This isn't that big of a deal though as having them mounted flat on the board made them to hard to read anyways.

Babaluma · Post by **Babaluma** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:25 pm

that's terrible news

does anyone know if any of the production models have this problem?

i have still not seen any magazine or long online reviews of this desk.

if they are really poor i'll save a load of cash and buy two mackie 1604 VL3's instead.

alanhyatt · Post by **alanhyatt** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:38 pm

Hey guys,

First of all, your jumping on the side of this customer, hanging us out to dry without even asking us our side of things.

What I see is a few guys now saying its made in China, or its bullshit give him a new console, or screw these guys...and you have no idea what went on. Oh, and don't believe what our competitor puts on his website as far as a comparison sheet. We will not trump up dirt with that guy. I think if you ask Larry Crane about his experiences with the competitors console, you may understand why we do not want to get into the gutter with what he does.

Mix, and EM have done their reviews which will be out soon. They said it is the best sounding, best built console in its class. Now remember, this guy bought one of the first consoles on the Pilot Program. Those who have followed the program, we sold them at a reduced cost because we expected a couple of issues on the first run, but we said we would fix anything that went wrong...and we have done that.

This guys console had minor issues, A fader I think. We fixed it. He says he is experiencing a 6dB level issue that absolutely did not show up at our facility. We suggested that perhaps one of his wires in his patch bay has a balance leg mis-wired as that would cause a 6dB difference, yet here it was fine on the very same channel he was complaining about.

He told us he was working with Tape OP and authorized to do a review of the console, yet John and Larry told us he is not. Bill Wells is the guy that will be doing the review, so this guy lied to us right out of the shoot. I suspect he did this in order to better his chances to getting a replacement console...but this is what he told us.

Now, we took care of this guy and did it in a very nice and professional manner. He did not get what he wanted, which was a new console. PMI does not do that, and I suspect neither does Neve.

So while this guy posted some nice mixes on line, he has had use of this console for some 10 months with one or two issues on a Pilot Program console that we took care of quickly.

PMI does not deserve to be bashed here and the product which has now sold some 1000 consoles is out and working. There are 45 pages with some 92,000 views since July 2006 on Gearsluts with so many positive comments.

Do not jump to label our consoles bad because of one customer...especially when he used Tape Op to try and gain something.

Sorry for the rant, but we are a business and have service policies like every other manufacturer out there. Things happen to every manufacturer, but that does not mean you replace them. We provide good service and support.

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:12 pm

A big red flag for me is when a manufacturer goes on a messageboard and starts to rag on a customer, no matter what the customer may have done. I don't care what industry and/or market we're discussing...that's just poor business practice across the board and represents a very amateurish way of treating the customers - no matter how troublesome they may be to the mother company. No need to chime in; take the high road and let the product speak for itself.

honkyjonk · Post by **honkyjonk** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:55 pm

Not to mention that Raymond has probably sold them like 20 boards based on his initial positive reviews and super awesome sound clips posted here early on.

Anyway, there's been a number of responses over on gearslutz from Alan. I think that PMI's take on this thing was that the internet forums helped in designing the board or at least a feature set, so responding to those same folks on the forums is a regular thing.

But, yeah, totally. The tone with which customers have been dealt with in a couple of instances are a total red flag, I'd have to agree.

Any time a company representative says "sorry for the rant but . . . . " that can't be a good thing.

This board is largely a word of mouth thing though. It's been sold by word of mouth and word of mouth can very easily hurt business so it seems like it would behoove them to do better than good by Raymond.

honkyjonk · Post by **honkyjonk** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:11 pm

By the way, Alan,

You're a reasonable sized company. We all have companies we like, but by and large when companies get as big PMI, the benefit of doubt is not going to be immediately given to you in the same way it is to a customer who is very much like us, who spent money like we do, on a product we would probably consider, and who uses it in ways we do.

We've all been fucked up the ass by big companies and their customer service numerous times, so don't try to play the "you havn't even listened to our side" card.

The hand that you're dealt as a reasonable sized company dictates that you're going to have to be nice to customers or we are going to immediately bash you on internet forums. Sorry, that's just the way it is. And that's a good thing for us.

We don't even bat an eye when one of our fellow posters comes here with a horror story concerning the customer service of bigger pro audio companies because it happens so much. It's sad.

But by the same tolkien, that's why we love companies who will do you right, like Purple, Empirical Labs, and Audio Technica. They don't say nothin', they just work overtime to back up their products.

JWL · Post by **JWL** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:57 pm

2 sides to every story.

You can't expect every customer to be happy. And, you can't expect every manufacturer to do backflips all the time.

'Nuff said.

I'd still consider Toft if I were in the market for an analog board in that price range, most definitely.

bannerj · Post by **bannerj** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:17 pm

Red flags? What the hell? He's trying to protect his business just like you guys are trying to protect yours. I've been waiting to hear his side of the story since Rockets Red Glare posted his dissatisfaction because I'm really interested in this board. I was kind of expecting him to say something. It would be unprofessional if he started slandering Rockets Red, but he didn't. He just tried to tell his side which in this day when we rely so much on these forums of the recording community...this seems pretty normal.

I'm surprised that no one has yet said anything about the fact that his board was indeed a beta. Should he really expect it to not have flaws? I'm honestly asking because I don't know how these things have worked with other beta programs.

I guess I just gotta wait another year before I buy one...to see if the more recent productions are falling apart too.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:21 pm

bannerj wrote:Red flags? What the hell? He's trying to protect his business just like you guys are trying to protect yours. I've been waiting to hear his side of the story since Rockets Red Glare posted his dissatisfaction because I'm really interested in this board. I was kind of expecting him to say something. It would be unprofessional if he started slandering Rockets Red, but he didn't. He just tried to tell his side which in this day when we rely so much on these forums of the recording community...this seems pretty normal. .

totally. Come on people. In this day and age, the communication options we have available, like THE INTERNET, i'd expect "companies" and "customers" to feel free to voice concerns, praise, whatever.

I'm not for either "side" of this. I have reason to trust both parties in this. With the availability of talking and discussing such things, answers will, more than likely, be found.

bannerj · Post by **bannerj** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:28 pm

trodden wrote:I'm not for either "side" of this. I have reason to trust both parties in this. With the availability of talking and discussing such things, answers will, more than likely, be found.

Awesome. Well said.

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:04 am

I still think it's bad practice for a manufacturer to post on a messageboard about a specific customer. Am I considering a small format console in the near future? Yup. Am I now worried that if I go with a Toft, and have some issues that I want the company to take care of, my name might show up on a messageboard courtesy of the manufacturer? Yup.

Jon Nolan · Post by **Jon Nolan** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:27 am

mjau wrote:I still think it's bad practice for a manufacturer to post on a messageboard about a specific customer. Am I considering a small format console in the near future? Yup. Am I now worried that if I go with a Toft, and have some issues that I want the company to take care of, my name might show up on a messageboard courtesy of the manufacturer? Yup.

+1

how about:

"we're bummed we couldn't make raymond happy, and we know we cant make everyone happy. we tried our best to make it clear to the pilot program folks that there would likely be issues, and no surprise there are. we've done our best to take care of such issues, and we are confident our product will still keep most engineers thrilled. a few exceptions are bound to happen."

whatever you call this, it certainly isn't good old fashioned customer service.

Annoyed all to hell...
Jon

PS- edited to eliminate excessive venom!

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First Impressions of the TOFT ATB - 16

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