First Impressions of the TOFT ATB - 16

[Harry]

The customer is always right.

If I bought this board(and it was still under warranty) I would expect.

The company to ship the board both ways on their dime.

I would expect any issues to be resolved the 1st time.

An apology for any trouble or down time.

As far as the "beta" things goes...Are you going to treat someone who waits in line to be the first to try out your great new product as a second rate customer??
what are the reasons for offering a "beta" program anyway?
In my opinion a program like this is meant to benefit the company more than the customer. Alan is acting like he did Raymond a great big favor letting him be a beta tester of this new product? That attitude is ass backwards?

[Red Rockets Glare]

Wow. And I thought the guy I talked to last time at TOFT was kind of tightly wound....

Mix, and EM have done their reviews which will be out soon. They said it is the best sounding, best built console in its class. Now remember, this guy bought one of the first consoles on the Pilot Program. Those who have followed the program, we sold them at a reduced cost because we expected a couple of issues on the first run, but we said we would fix anything that went wrong...and we have done that.

...Saying "Hey kid you got a deal, shut up and keep unhooking your mixing board every six months and losing valuable studio and work time" Is no way to run a business.

This guys console had minor issues, A fader I think. We fixed it. He says he is experiencing a 6dB level issue that absolutely did not show up at our facility. We suggested that perhaps one of his wires in his patch bay has a balance leg mis-wired as that would cause a 6dB difference, yet here it was fine on the very same channel he was complaining about.

...Two faders, one of them is on it's second replacement, and they didn't show up until the board had warmed up for a half an hour. Who knows, the channel with the level drop may have shown up if we'd let it sit for a few days. I'm glad that instead of losing a few more bookings at my studio we just went ahead and replaced the 85 cent op amp. Complaining about? Who uses that kind of language about a customer?

He told us he was working with Tape OP and authorized to do a review of the console, yet John and Larry told us he is not. Bill Wells is the guy that will be doing the review, so this guy lied to us right out of the shoot. I suspect he did this in order to better his chances to getting a replacement console...but this is what he told us.

...You know what man, fuck you. I said I'd been writing a review ON tape op....messageboard. You know, this thing that we're typing on right now? 15 thousand views....
I wonder how many folks will pick up the print reviews and read them?

[red cross]

Wow. I remember PMI being double quick to post references to the mixes done by Red Rockets when all was fine and dandy and he was praising their mixer to the skies. Now that his board is fucking up on a regular basis he just becomes "this guy" that wants a new console eh. Its very nice to attribute a greedy negative motive to a customer that just wants to be done right by. Pure class, PMI.

[jc_terrones]

I was mere moments from buying a Toft ATB16 from Full Compass. They have one in stock. Not any more based on the guy from PMI's response on this forum.

I'll take my $3500.00 elsewhere.

Worst public treatment of a customer I have seen in a looong time.

[red cross]

To be fair though, what else could we expect from a 16-channel board that costs $3,500? The ATC-2 by itself is already a grand. Did we really believe PMI would be able to squeeze 8 times as many EQs/pres, plus an entire working console into just 3 times as much money? Something has to give at that price point. An 8 channel Neotek Elan tabletop costs about fifteen grand for Chrissake!

My main beef with PMI and their ilk is that they are so quick to lap up praise, but the moment things start heading south its time to whip out the "it's a three grand board, did you expect it to work for longer than ten months" line. Don't fucking sell it for three grand then. Make it work right.

[JWL]

So dood, how do you explain the 6dB gain thing? It doesn't work in your studio when hooked up to your patch bay, but when you unhook it from there it works fine? Any troubleshooter worth his salt would conclude that the problem is in the studio, and most likely in the patchbay. Have you experimented with this? Tried swapping cable channels out of the patchbay to see what happens to the 6dB thing?

I hear you, that one channel broke a couple of times. That's a pain, but they've fixed that, right? Now you say the bulbs in the meters aren't working. Have you told them about it and given them a chance to fix it? What else is wrong with the board, apart from the 6dB thing which has been shown to not be a problem with the mixer?

What exactly haven't they done for you, other than give you a new board?

That said, I agree that the post from PMI was probably not productive from a PR standpoint.

I've been on both sides of this in my experience (stuck with a lemon, and dealing with a customer that wants a totally new piece of gear because of a problem when that problem has been fixed). It sucks for everyone involved....

But there are 2 sides to every story. I'm totally not involved in this so I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but it seems to me that both sides of this could go into problem-solving mode and not bitching-about-the-other-side mode.

I wonder if PMI would be willing to give you a new board, if you paid the difference between the beta price and the new release price? Just an idea....

[Red Rockets Glare]

So dood, how do you explain the 6dB gain thing? It doesn't work in your studio when hooked up to your patch bay, but when you unhook it from there it works fine? Any troubleshooter worth his salt would conclude that the problem is in the studio, and most likely in the patchbay. Have you experimented with this? Tried swapping cable channels out of the patchbay to see what happens to the 6dB thing?

I unhooked everything from the board and ran a test tone into it. I wasn't looking forward to taking off work and driving down there, I did everrything I could think of to fix it.
The bulbs went dark somewhere inbetween my house and the toft shop last time, so I thought maybe it was just the fact that we were using their shops power supply, but now that it's home, they are still dark. And as I mentioned, I don't use them enought to warrant another trip. I have a funny feeling I'll be back there eventually though, so I'll try to get it fixed then.

I hear you, that one channel broke a couple of times. That's a pain, but they've fixed that, right? What else is wrong with the board, apart from the 6dB thing which has been shown to not be a problem with the mixer?

..what else, well, the solo buttons make an audible pop throuh the master fader, and I mentioned this to the tech with a response of, "Yeah, we're aware of that problem..." Not another word was mentioned about it the rest of the time....

What exactly haven't they done for you, other than give you a new board?

...they sure haven't made me feel like a valued customer that has been bending over backwards to spread the good word about their product.

I wonder if PMI would be willing to give you a new board, if you paid the difference between the beta price and the new release price? Just an idea....

...hmmm, I wonder if that financial gap has been reached and passed with three missed days of recording sessions.

[Catoogie]

Bad move on your part Alan. Now granted I'm not currently or in the near future in the market to buy a board but man I talk to a lot of people about gear. People ask me for suggestions and reccomendations on this all the time. I refer them to stuff I not only know about but since I'm pretty well read on new gear and stuff that's supposed to be cool, stuff I've heard about. I have to say I'd have to warn them about your stuff. Your gear could be great, the best, but your attitude and the way you treated your customer was really shitty. You fucked up pal and in my opinion you should be doing whatever it takes to rectify the situation and your piss poor customer service. What were you thinking? Don't you know you should take a moment before you hit the send/submit button to make sure what you wrote is really what you want to send? You look like a dick.

[phantom power]

Catoogie wrote:

Bad move on your part Alan. Now granted I'm not currently or in the near future in the market to buy a board but man I talk to a lot of people about gear. People ask me for suggestions and reccomendations on this all the time. I refer them to stuff I not only know about but since I'm pretty well read on new gear and stuff that's supposed to be cool, stuff I've heard about. I have to say I'd have to warn them about your stuff. Your gear could be great, the best, but your attitude and the way you treated your customer was really shitty. You fucked up pal and in my opinion you should be doing whatever it takes to rectify the situation and your piss poor customer service. What were you thinking? Don't you know you should take a moment before you hit the send/submit button to make sure what you wrote is really what you want to send? You look like a dick.

+1


Raymond,

Good luck to you. This sucks!

-AE

[trodden]

after going over this thread again, sober this time, yeah Alan should have been a bit more respectful in his post and Toft should really go out of their way to accommodate Raymond.

[A-Barr]

I recall another AH post on the Sweetwater forums from a couple years ago where he got into a shouting match with the guy from ADK, iirc. That incident turned my opinion on the company in a similar manner. As a spokesman, you never want to come off as defensive or accusatory, and always be respectful.

The use of "This Guy" and "Complaining" does not show these qualities.

With all due respect, Mr. Hyatt, get a PR rep. to handle your forum postings. Your products are well-regarded, and you have certainly proved your merit as a businessman and accomplished many great things, but you have to know your strengths and weaknesses. If I started a pro audio company, I sure as hell would hire someone else to go out and shmooze and pimp my stuff because I know I am just no good at it, God knows I wouldn't handle the accounting either!

[bannerj]

Wow. I guess the TOMB is pretty effective at kicking someone's ass. I can see why you are all up in a rage. We are all for the most part around here running smaller studios and don't have money to throw around, but part of me wonders if everyone is venting a lot more than this one circumstance. We've all been screwed by customer service before and so we've got a lot of tightly wound people around here. Or is it the anonymity of the internet that makes us feel free to trash on someone? Anyway, the point has been made, this guy should have been better with customer service. Maybe we've taught him a lesson.

I still want to know more about the board itself. Perhaps I should be scared away by this horror story. I'm glad to take Rockets Red Glare's experience into account before I make a decision, but I'm still wondering if the TOFT is the shite considering their cost. I think the TO community especially would be very concerned about knowing the whole story instead of just flinging shit around. Again, I'll probably wait for a year before I buy anything in order to get a more thorough understanding of the board. Yes, it might turn out that many more of these things are falling apart. I'm just looking for some good, balanced, rational discussion here.

[trodden]

I'm just looking for some good, balanced, rational discussion here.

on the internet? hahah.

no really, i agree as well. I'm still interested in the FUTURE of this board, after all the beta issues are resolved. However, won't be affording one for a few years.. after they start showing up on the used market more than likely!

[Red Rockets Glare]

Wow. I guess the TOMB is pretty effective at kicking someone's ass. I can see why you are all up in a rage. We are all for the most part around here running smaller studios and don't have money to throw around, but part of me wonders if everyone is venting a lot more than this one circumstance. We've all been screwed by customer service before. We've got a lot of tightly wound people around here. Or is it the anonymity of the internet? Anyway, the point has been made, this guy should should have been better with customer service.

I still want to know more about the board itself. Perhaps I should be scared away by this horror story. I'm glad to take Rockets Red Glare's experience into account before I make a decision, but I'm still wondering if the TOFT is the shite considering their cost. I think the TO community especially would be very concerned about knowing the whole story instead of just flinging shit around. Again, I'll probably wait for a year before I buy anything in order to get a more thorough understanding of the board. Yes, it might turn out that many more of these things are falling apart. I'm just looking for some good, balanced, rational discussion here.

It is a fatastic sounding board. I still feel that way. I really hope that my board is an isolated incident, that is the reason I was asking for a replacement.
I just felt that I should speak up about what is going on rather than continue to remain quiet about it.
I am glad I did speak up, now you all have a pretty good idea of what to expect should you encounter any problems.

[bannerj]

It is a fatastic sounding board. I still feel that way. I really hope that my board is an isolated incident, that is the reason I was asking for a replacement.
I just felt that I should speak up about what is going on rather than continue to remain quiet about it.
I am glad I did speak up, now you all have a pretty good idea of what to expect should you encounter any problems.

I'm glad you spoke up too. Feedback from real, tangible users is always the best and most helpful. I've always appreciated your posts...and your experience with this beta does suck.