Ribbon OH's

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Russian Recording
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Post by Russian Recording » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:08 pm

JASIII wrote:I was under the impression that ribbons have slower transient response due to the fact that the ribbon is slower to respond than a condenser mic diaphragm, due to its bulk. It's hard to imagine that a piece of aluminum foil is more sensitive than a micrometers thick (thin) piece of mylar. Are my illusions about to be shattered?
yes, as i stated not so clearly above, some ribbons can capture transients as well as some condensors, but on the whole, condensors, especially small diaphragm condensors, have the best transient repsonse.

mike

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Post by JASIII » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:01 pm

Russian Recording wrote:
JASIII wrote:I was under the impression that ribbons have slower transient response due to the fact that the ribbon is slower to respond than a condenser mic diaphragm, due to its bulk. It's hard to imagine that a piece of aluminum foil is more sensitive than a micrometers thick (thin) piece of mylar. Are my illusions about to be shattered?
yes, as i stated not so clearly above, some ribbons can capture transients as well as some condensors, but on the whole, condensors, especially small diaphragm condensors, have the best transient repsonse.

mike
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Fletcher
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Post by Fletcher » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:55 pm

Faster, slower, richer, darker... what was used by an old guy on a currently dead guy is really going to be pretty irrelevant to what the guy is recording... what is relevant is that he will have 16ft. ceilings at the session which in my world makes it an ideal room to give ribbon mic or two a shot.

The Royer SF-12 has remarkably clear high frequency response which often makes it a real joy to run up as overheads... that, and its a self contained Blumlein setup so phase coherencey is already accomplished before you have to dick around too much.

Another favorite is the AEA R-88 which is a bit darker... or perfect for the drummer who hits the cymbals a bit too hard or is running Paiste's or Sabian's... if the drummer is running kinda dark sound Zildjians I've found the Crowley and Tripp "Studio Vocalist" to capture the air and top [and stick sound on the brass] in a very classy and elegant manner.

Small diaphragm condenser mics are also great. I've found that mics like the Microtech Gefell M-295 or M-300's do a great job when spaced over the kit and aimed kinda directly at the cymbal area to bring the cymbal tone a bit closer. Not necessarily a good thing for a cymbal basher, but if the drummer can play with some touch and finesse then it is an exceptionally valid technique.

Large diaphragm condenser mics are often a great choice when you're trying to capture the sound of the natural drum kit in the overheads in addition to the cymbal tone. On a metal record I would generally think that the close mics will be doing the majority of the heavy lifting in which case I might not want as much of the natural kit sound in the overheads as I would want a real emphasis on the cymbal tones and a bit of the rest of the kit just to add some size.

My only suggestion would be to not walk into the session with any hard/etched in stone preconceived notions and do a little experimenting... worst case scenario you might waste the better part of an hour of your time in the studio hanging some different mics and hearing the texture they impart... but the best part of that "waste of time" is that you'll come away with a bit more experience so you won't have to ask unanswerable questions like this on the internet.

Best of luck with the session.

Peace.

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Post by nestle » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:17 am

I have been having amazing results just using one Nady RM-2 low above the kit, just one in mono. I have a pair of the tape op ribbons and tried it in stereo but it didn't sound as good. Once you let go of the stereo modern sound your used to mono can be a beautiful thing. RE20 on the kick, beta 57 on snare and the Nady on the OH, oh man it sounds great.... for some reason mono just makes everything so thick and cohesive. Toms are fat and the cymbals are tamed but focused. the kit is in a small to medium room in the corner with everyone else making a shit load of noise and the leakage seems fine to me, the rejection on the sides seems fine, I just put sonex on the ceiling above the mic. I love leakage though - it sounds rock and roll to me to have all the players in the same room.
I do have a R 121 I've been wanting to try on OH also, but no kidding the Nady sounds so cool it just stays up, maybe I just got a good one, but that mic is awsome.

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Post by JASIII » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:32 am

nestle wrote:I have been having amazing results just using one Nady RM-2 low above the kit, just one in mono. I have a pair of the tape op ribbons and tried it in stereo but it didn't sound as good. Once you let go of the stereo modern sound your used to mono can be a beautiful thing. RE20 on the kick, beta 57 on snare and the Nady on the OH, oh man it sounds great.... for some reason mono just makes everything so thick and cohesive. Toms are fat and the cymbals are tamed but focused. the kit is in a small to medium room in the corner with everyone else making a shit load of noise and the leakage seems fine to me, the rejection on the sides seems fine, I just put sonex on the ceiling above the mic. I love leakage though - it sounds rock and roll to me to have all the players in the same room.
I do have a R 121 I've been wanting to try on OH also, but no kidding the Nady sounds so cool it just stays up, maybe I just got a good one, but that mic is awsome.
I use this technique all the time on drums. Mono OH ribbon, works great. no phase issues, the only tricky part I've run into is making sure the cymbals are balanced with the rest of the kit, which is just a matter of trying different heights on the OH until you get the right balance of drums to cymbals.

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Post by nestle » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:51 am

JASIII wrote:
nestle wrote:I have been having amazing results just using one Nady RM-2 low above the kit, just one in mono. I have a pair of the tape op ribbons and tried it in stereo but it didn't sound as good. Once you let go of the stereo modern sound your used to mono can be a beautiful thing. RE20 on the kick, beta 57 on snare and the Nady on the OH, oh man it sounds great.... for some reason mono just makes everything so thick and cohesive. Toms are fat and the cymbals are tamed but focused. the kit is in a small to medium room in the corner with everyone else making a shit load of noise and the leakage seems fine to me, the rejection on the sides seems fine, I just put sonex on the ceiling above the mic. I love leakage though - it sounds rock and roll to me to have all the players in the same room.
I do have a R 121 I've been wanting to try on OH also, but no kidding the Nady sounds so cool it just stays up, maybe I just got a good one, but that mic is awsome.

I use this technique all the time on drums. Mono OH ribbon, works great. no phase issues, the only tricky part I've run into is making sure the cymbals are balanced with the rest of the kit, which is just a matter of trying different heights on the OH until you get the right balance of drums to cymbals.
Right on, good to know somebody else besides you me and the beatles are doing this. I agree about height. Which ribbon are you using?

Also I think having the drums in the corner at an angle concentrates the sound into the ribbon and has something to do with the results I'm getting.

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Post by JASIII » Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:49 am

I use either a TOMB group buy ribbon, or a CAD Trion 7000. Both cheapies. When I was doing drums in my living room instead of a actual live room, I used to aim the OH ribbon so the backside was aiming into a corner where the wall and ceiling meet ("corner loading" I believe it's called), I think in a small, less-than-ideal room the sound coming back into the backside of the figure 8 added a little something.

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Post by AGCurry » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:56 pm

Here's a cut I made using two Shure 330s as X/Y overheads, an M88 on kick drum, and NO snare mic. I think it sounds pretty good. No EQ or compression, not mastered.

http://www.andycurry.info/Dan_Doran/The ... 0Crowd.mp3

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Post by Mane1234 » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:46 pm

Great responses guys...Thank you all so much for chiming in. At first I was not expecting to be able to experiment much but it's going to be such an ideal situation that even if I have to put up an hours worth of time myself I think it will be worth it. I'm planning on starting with Blumlein and I've never used that before...Anyone have any positioning tips? Things to watch out for.
Of course I've had it in the ear before.....

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I'm Painting Again
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Post by I'm Painting Again » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:46 am

I love ribbons on OH..I've been rocking the old ML19 sans blastguard (thanks for the tip Mike!)..that one is a cardio ribbon BTW..

I know people use the "back" end of a figure of 8 ribbon when they want to pick up a brighter sound..just watch where the other end points to avaoid bad early reflections when using figure of 8..

overall, you owe it to your band to try everything you got to get the best sound..so ty it all..

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