Problematic Client

Kitana_One · Post by **Kitana_One** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:22 am

This isn't for audio. It's for a graphics/dvd/website freelance project I contracted, which is the other half of my talents. I figure there are some other people around here that do both as well.

Here's my dillemma.

I have a client who contracted me 3 1/2 months ago.

The client wanted a Website, a DVD Cover and the DVD Content.

This client paid me $2,000 up front for the entire job.

I completed the website, the DVD cover is 1/2 done and I haven't started on the DVD content.

The entire time, this client has dragged his feet and hasen't provided any copy, images or footage. He basically expects something out of nothing. All he has provided is a flyer he used to use 15 years ago.

He basically can't get his shit together and is now trying to blame me for things not being complete, he's pissed that I used portions of a flash template (when it was never mentioned that I couldn't, and I never would have agreed to do it for this little with a specification of such, no rwould any other graphic artist) and now he wants a full refund.

We never signed a contract. Everything has been verbal in person or over the phone with a few emails here and there.

My wife doesn't know how much he paid me and thinks I was paid $500 for these services. So I need to avoid this going to small claims court and my wife finding out how much I was paid. The money has also already been spent.

What would you guys do and what do you advise?

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:35 am

i would hand over what you finished, or finish something and tell him that he can either have something, and work together to get something he is happy with, or fuck off. if there is no contract, he will have a pretty hard time arguing his side of the case, and he is probably just trying to scare you into giving the money back.

if you have upheld your end of the bargain so far, explain to him that he's not getting any money back, so he should either get some content together or accept that there will be no DVD without any content.

people like that are a drag, and as long as the website wasn't too 'templatey', he shouldn't complain. only your concience can be the judge on whether your website was a good ammount of work for the money paid.

john

dynomike · Post by **dynomike** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:46 am

i'm with john. no contract means you're the boss... but i think perhaps you could consider giving him a partial refund as you haven't started the dvd content, and he apparently doesn't have what it takes to help you complete it.

as far as the website goes, did he know it was from a template before you told him? would we?

kayagum · Post by **kayagum** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:56 am

Umm... you shouldn't have spent the money?

Kitana_One · Post by **Kitana_One** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:04 am

dynomike wrote:i'm with john. no contract means you're the boss... but i think perhaps you could consider giving him a partial refund as you haven't started the dvd content, and he apparently doesn't have what it takes to help you complete it.

as far as the website goes, did he know it was from a template before you told him? would we?

I'll probably end up giving him a partial refund. Hopefully not a whole refund. I do want to avoid haing this go to to small claims though, as I don't want my wif eto find out how much I was actually paid. Not that I would have had a problem telling her... I simply paid some bills I didn't want to share the burden of with her and can't really go back on it now.

As far as the site is concerned... no, you wouldn't be able to tell unless you were a graphic designer aware of your resources or someone trying to get out of a hole that they dug for themselves (like my client). Or maybe someone who spends 24/7 on the web and happened to run across something similar, but considering the amount of websites out there, I seriously doubt it.

Here's the site I did: http://www.agp seminars.com

(I broke the link so he can't trace it back to here via webstats, just copy, paste and correct the link.)

He knows templates exist and never specified whether or not I could use one. 90% of the web is made from some form of template or another, otherwise the work would cost much more for clients. I wouldn't have agreed to the job if it was specified that I couldn't, as he was already getting an amazing deal anyways.

Kitana_One · Post by **Kitana_One** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:05 am

kayagum wrote:Umm... you shouldn't have spent the money?

No, I shouldn't have, but I just had my first child and my wife's on maternity... so we really needed it.

I suppose I'll have to find a way to come up with some cash really fast.

I hate situations like this.

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:10 am

you did as much work as you could considering he gave you almost nothing to work with.

under NO circumstances give him a full refund, the client is the one who dropped the ball and you shouldn't be penalised for that.

my $0.02.

dynomike · Post by **dynomike** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:31 am

RefD wrote:you did as much work as you could considering he gave you almost nothing to work with.

under NO circumstances give him a full refund, the client is the one who dropped the ball and you shouldn't be penalised for that.

my $0.02.

i agree with this, too. taking a look at the website, what is noticeably lacking is content, not design. his responsibility...

mike

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:44 pm

Call his bluff. Tell him that you've had little content and that it was not you who has dropped the ball. Finish the work you said you would finish when the content arrives. Make him understand that you will do the work and keep up your end of the deal, but the money is no longer his.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:38 pm

Kitana_One wrote:No, I shouldn't have, but I just had my first child and my wife's on maternity... so we really needed it.

You really needed the $500 or the $2000?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

GooberNumber9 · Post by **GooberNumber9** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:26 pm

Kitana_One wrote:He knows templates exist and never specified whether or not I could use one. 90% of the web is made from some form of template or another, otherwise the work would cost much more for clients. I wouldn't have agreed to the job if it was specified that I couldn't, as he was already getting an amazing deal anyways.

I've been a web designer before, and if he thinks he can get all that he wanted (site and DVD) for $2000 and NOT have a template on there he's in a fantasy land.

I just checked out the site and template or no template, I think he ripped you off. What was he expecting, aperfectcircle.com or something?

I'm going to go along with give him what you got and tell him where he can stick it. I mean, tell him you can't offer him a refund but you're willing to deliver everything you have right away, or finish the job once he has given you the appropriate content.

You might also think about talking to a lawyer before he does, or before you talk to him again. In fact, get a lawyer and have the lawyer call him.

Todd Wilcox

alex matson · Post by **alex matson** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:44 pm

I'm confused about what the dvd was supposed to contain - and that there would be confusion over how you were supposed to deliver it without content. What was said at the beginning? Does he expect you to go to the plant and shoot video or what?
A former bandmate of mine provided an amazing CD-ROM to a client and was totally ripped off. He had no recourse because he gave the client a copy, which they used - and there was no contract then either.
As for my experience with contracts, not that you're asking - I was asked to join a touring band that had just gotten out of a contract with MCA. They have sold over a million cd's. I made several records with them - and the only contract I had stipulated that band members only saw royalties when the band was in the black, and that none were paid if we left the group. Result: 6 records, $2000 total, and when I quit, they owed me thousands in back tour wages. But of course I was free to not do it at all. That was the gig - don't know what I could have done differently. For a while there I was making $1500 a week on the road. It didn't suck...

Kitana_One · Post by **Kitana_One** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:15 pm

wow...

Seems almost unanimous so far.

Are you guys being sympathetic because you've been in my situation before, or because it's what's right?

I'll have to re-read some of these posts and adress them indivually tomorrow morning.

Thanks for all the advice so far everyone!!!

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:30 pm

Kitana_One wrote:Are you guys being sympathetic because you've been in my situation before, or because it's what's right?

both, in some cases.

8th_note · Post by **8th_note** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:19 pm

Are you guys being sympathetic because you've been in my situation before, or because it's what's right?

I don't build web sites but I have a business where we build custom structures for the public and sometimes you just encounter unreasonable people. The thing that frustrates me is that these people get away with intimidation way more often than they should.

I looked at the web site. If you've really told the story correctly then you're in the right. Here's a few more tips based on my experience with this type of asshole:

1. Sit down and write a sequence of events as accurately as you can from memory. Include dates where ever you can. If you can't pinpoint the exact day then pinpoint the week. Recount every conversation that you can - both sides. Especially recount the times when you asked him for content. Hopefully you wrote him emails asking for content that you have a record of.

2. You have a verbal contract with the guy. That is legally binding. Write down now what this contract is. What did you tell him you would do? What did he say?

3. Write a draft of a letter to the guy calmly explaining what you intend to do. Your position is that you agreed to do a project and that you want to finish the project - you are just waiting on content. Write the letter and wait a day. Look at it again. Make corrections. Wait another day. Make more corrections. When you are comfortable with the letter send it to him via email as well as a copy by mail. Do not mention the possibility of a refund. This is simply not an option. Do not make this a long letter, don't complain about his performance in the process, just clearly state what you need to finish the project and when you need it. Then tell him, based on this timetable for obtaining the content information, when you will deliver the completed project to him. Don't mention the template. It's a smokescreen and a non-issue.

4. If the guy gets belligerent then you will need to write him a letter documenting the sequence of events in this project - focusing on how you asked him for content numerous times and he did not deliver it. Restate that you want to finish the project and that you are waiting on content. This letter is meant to show the guy that if he thinks he can scare you into coughing up the money you won't be easily intimidated.

The crazier this guy gets the more calm and professional you should get. Any conversations you have with him from this point on try to use a low soothing voice. The louder he gets, the quieter you get. I spent much of my career negotiating multi million dollar contracts with some real flaming assholes. Look at this as good experience.

And by the way, I'm no marriage counselor, but please tell your wife. She's going to find out, trust me. This is one of those little moments that should make you think about the nature of your relationship. Don't fuck it up.

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