Guitar thumb placement/fret question

[alex matson]

I'm posting this here because I'm a person and I'm questioning my skills.
My Carol Kaye dvd lesson made me aware that my habit of bringing my thumb over the neck on stringed instruments is costing me leverage and making things harder.
So I'm getting a guitar teacher - but in the meantime, I saw a video on Youtube of Elliott Smith playing 'Independence Day' on acoustic guitar, and I was very excited to see how that is played (I'm a piano player, trying to learn guitar and bass) - and THAT led me to trying to barre a chord on the 8th fret. The 2nd or B string goes 'plink' when I try this, so I make a concerted effort to just lay a finger across all six strings and have all six strings play clearly. Plink plink plink. Grr. I start bearing down harder and harder. Can't do it. The frets don't look all that worn down, but they're not very large either. So I google up a refret price...$185. Now, to be sure, I'm going to have a teacher soon, and I can take my guitar to a shop and get the definitive answer, but all this has me thinking....should this be THAT hard? And so, with all my silly dreams about getting a Rickenbacker 12 string, a Gretsch, an ASAT, a Martin...luckily I've come down to earth and realized that whoever told me that I need to invest in private lessons more than any more gear was so right!!! But I'm just wondering...is there a simple test to see if it's my lack of ability or my old Yamaha acoustic that needs work? It kills me to think that my lack of progress on guitar might be due to simply needing a more playable instrument. Right now I'm thinking that playability is going to be the number one thing I'm going for on my current or next guitar. I remember when I was a teenager I'd picked up the flute and got pretty good at it with my $200 pawn shop special...then I got to play this girl's $3000 Haynes at a jazz competition....and I could play better than I ever had.

I think out of everything I've read here and in the magazine, this is the most important - It all starts with the instrument and the player. Worrying about a D/A, a word clock, or a preamp when the problem is the player is such a trap.

[rushofblood]

You could have your guitar teacher try to do the same chord on your guitar, and if he can't do it, it's probably the guitar.

[if6was9]

But I'm just wondering...is there a simple test to see if it's my lack of ability or my old Yamaha acoustic that needs work?

Measure the distance between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the low E string. Now do the same on the high E string. What distances do you measure?

Typical measurements might be in the 3/32 to 1/8 inch range. A bluegrass player might like it higher. Many players prefer lower. But that will let you know if you are in the ballpark.

In reality, guitar setup is more subtle than this. I'd recommend taking it to a good repair person for an estimate. But this simple measurement will give you some idea at least.

Also, you should probably use light guage strings while you are learning. Much easier on the fingers and you likely wouldn't benefit from the tonal possibilities of heavier strings for a few years, anyway.

Good luck!

[JGriffin]

While it's ocasionally advatageous to slip that thumb over the top of the neck (like to add an F# to a D chord or be Richie Havens) it's generally bad technique and does lose you leverage and flexibility. I had a guitar teacher once who would whack a student's thumb wiht a drumstick if it drifted up over the top of the neck.

[theBlubberRanch]

Didn't slow Jimi Hendrix down. Lots of blues guys wrapped their thumbs too.
Personally, playing the guitar is art, and with art, you can't let people box you in by saying not to do something. Learn both ways and use whatever method works for what you're playing.

[JGriffin]

Didn't slow Jimi Hendrix down. Lots of blues guys wrapped their thumbs too.
Personally, playing the guitar is art, and with art, you can't let people box you in by saying not to do something. Learn both ways and use whatever method works for what you're playing.

Jimi also had huge hands, was playing a guitar that was strung backwards, and definitely incorporated the thumb into his playing style. That's entirely different from just having a useless digit sitting there atop the neck not contributing to anything and ultimately being detrimental to the physics of playing the guitar. I never said it couldn't be used to a musical end, I'm just saying brotherman oughta learn good form before he goes off into art-land. Improving technique opens up possibilities on an instrument, it doesn't generally close them off.

[syrupcore]

I use my thumb to partially cover up the fact that I can't seem to hit any less than 5 strings at a time. must.put.pinky.on.instrument.

Alex, I wonder if a capo across the 8th fret would offer any insight.

[GooberNumber9]

I put my thumb over for some things (I find it helps me make bends, because I just squeeze), and I don't do it for other things (like complex jazzy single-note stuff with no bending). Mainly I've developed a thumb over style and if I took on a teacher who told me never to do it I'd find a new teacher.

Also to thumb or not to thumb is related to many other things, including the size of your hand (already mentioned), the width and thickness of the neck, and how low or high you sling your guitar. Bigger hands, smaller necks, and lower guitars will agree with a thumb over the top more. The opposite will encourage a thumb behind the neck.

You just gotta figure out what works for you. Everyone has different hands, different guitars, and different goals.

Todd Wilcox

[mingus2112]

i'll step in here.

Play each string individually at the 8th fret. can you get it to play cleanly? if so, then the problem is NOT with your guitar. Playing barre chords is NOT an easy thing. . .especially for a beginner. When I teach all night and all of my students are working on barre chords my index finger is DOG TIRED! It takes muscle. You have to build up that muscle by repetition. Don't be discouraged by "plink plink." The EXERCISE in it all is your left hand. You'll get it eventually!

[kayagum]

Best guitar lesson I ever received:

The thumb should be on the back of the guitar neck, a good full fret (or two) to the left of your index finger - towards the headstock (assuming you play a right-handed guitar). The point of contact on your thumb should be more towards the side facing the index finger, above the joint.

Voila. Instant leverage. You literally twist your hand (and other fingers) into the fingerboard, and use the thumb as a fulcrum.

If your thumb is on the same fret as your index finger, it's like trying to use a seesaw with the fulcrum right next to you.

If your hand is really huge, you can definitely do the wrap around technique, and you won't need this. But for us mere mortals, this is the proper hand position.

Try it and let me know how it works.

[JGriffin]

You're boxing in their art, man.

[mrgreengenes]

Assuming the guitar is OK, and you need to build up barre chord strength, you could try something a guitar teacher had me do way back when:

Make a barre across all six strings, with your thumb firmly planted in the back of the neck. Turn the guitar so the headstock is up and the body is down. Hold the guitar upright with just the barre cord finger and thumb. Keep holding it there. Walk around, talk on the phone with your other hand, watch TV, whatever. Just hold the guitar in the air for as long as you can with just those two fingers. You'll be amazed at how easy it'll become to play barre chords once you've done this for a while.

* I don't recommend this with a Les Paul (heavy!) or anything particularly expensive

[RefD]

*continues to be glad of own large hands*

[comfortstarr]

I assume the Carol Kaye DVD is for bass? Every bass lesson I've taken from geeky jazz guys with mullets and boundless love for Spyro Gyro emphasized the thumb on the back of the neck. So I learned to play that way (also had to learn to stomach the embarrassment of wearing the bass up high, definitely not like the Ramones). However, I do believe that for bass, this is the "right" way to play and will really help you as you get better. I say "right" in quotes because I too am of the "whatever works" school. But, I think it's worthwhile when learning an instrument to at least consider the advice of those who've gone before and check those techniques out.

Barre chords on gitboxes are hard, as has been mentioned. I've been playing a classical a lot lately, it's a nice Blueridge and it's been set-up very recently. The guitar works, the player doesn't. Barres on that sucker are hard. My take, again, is learn the accepted way before tossing it out. I think that's sort of the mantra of the avant garde. It's hard, it can be drudgery, but later, you'll be better off for it. And isn't that life in a nutshell?

[kweis7]

Anyone ever see Cal Collins play? He is a jazz player from the mid-west. He has huge hands and wrapped his thumb around a lot. The carzy thing was when I saw him is that he had a degree of independence with his thumb, using it not as an anchor or pedal sort of thing, but actually moving bass notes around with it. Crazy!!!

There is something called 'joint morphology' which is basically the different shapes humans joints (bodies) take on. There are variations between the sexes, races etc but also just plain variations. Just because your hand is as big or bigger than mine does not mean you'll be able to wrap it around the neck. I have big hands but the way my thumbs are put together the wrap around thing is awkward so I avoid it. I tell students that it is generally a bad idea but not forbidden. Hendrix/Page/Collins etc. make it work.

One golden rule with guitar study is that if you are straining to grab something you're probably doing something wrong, you're a little ahead of yourself, or your guitar is messed up. Every time you pick up the guitar to practice you are creating habits and if you strain while you practice your playing will reflect this and you will not sound as good as you could of. This does not mean 'don't try to grab things that are difficult for you' but to not persist if you're hands hurt and your face is all scrunched up. The right kind of practice leads to relatively easy playing, even of difficult music.