Glyn Johns mic placement for live recording. Good or Bad?

[jziggy314]

It occured to me that the Glyn Johns setup for drums could be useful for live recordings. I have never used the method but it seems that due to the close proximity of the side and center mics to the kit bleed would be minimized or at least masked to a significant degree. I use a 002 sampling at 88.2 kHz. This limits me to 8 inputs (without a digital micpre) so minimizing the number of mics dedicated to the kit is essential. Hence the notion of using the Glyn Johns setup.

Is my assumption about bleed and masking on target?

[digitaldrummer]

I used it recently for a live recording and it worked nicely I thought. You'll always get some bleed in a live, on-stage gig but it adds to the live-ness I guess.

[Fletcher]

I've done it with great results... and I've done it with mediocre results... the room will play a large role in the outcome [the better the room the better the results from my experience... as always, YMMV].

[inflatable]

I use a 002 sampling at 88.2 kHz. This limits me to 8 inputs (without a digital micpre) so minimizing the number of mics dedicated to the kit is essential. Hence the notion of using the Glyn Johns setup.

Man, how did they ever record at Abbey Road in the 60s? Oh yeah...

You can submix mics b4 you hit the converters. Toms work especially nice for this. If you are felling really suave, mixing down 5 or 6 mics to 1 or 2 tracks will leave you with:

VOX
Gtr1 and Gtr2 (these can usually be submixed)
Bass
Crowd
Keys
Perc

[jziggy314]

You can submix mics b4 you hit the converters.

Sarcasm aside, submixing is a foregone conclusion but seeing as the question was about the Glyn Johns setup I found the issue of submixing off topic but lets talk about it.

Instrumentation:
Drum kit
Bass
Guitar
Woodwind (baritone sax,tenor sax,alto sax,flute)
Vox1
Vox2
Vox3

Mics/DIs:
2 Groove Tube AM62s
AKG D12
Demeter tube direct
SM57
Woodwind player uses a wireless for sax and a SM58 for flute. Vocals will use house mics. I am putting splitters on the woodwind and vocals to avoid the house electronics.

Using the Glyn Johns setup I am left with 5 converters for 6 signals. My outboard equipment is limited to 4 preamps (2 Telefunken V72s, 2ch presonus bluetube) and a 24 ch. Midas board (not the house board). No compressors.

I want to submix as little as possible because I want maximum control over the signals for mixing. I first thought I might submix 2 of the vocals but then started leaning toward kick and bass.

Suggestions anyone?

[Fletcher]

I would probably recommend you do the drums to two tracks, bass to one, guitar to one [that's 4] then [assuming the woodwind player will only be playing one instrument at a time] woodwind to one and each of the 3 vocals to their own [that makes 8 total].

When you do the final mix chances are fairly good that you'll be able to get the sonic arrangement required with just 2 tracks of drums... which I would probably do as "front of the kit" up the gut, over the kit panned slightly to the right [like 2 o'clock] and side of the kit panned left [like 9:00].

If you get the mics in the right spot and relatively phase coherent you shouldn't have a struggle.

Best of luck with it!!!

[jziggy314]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. If anyone reading this will be in Knoxville, TN on Friday come on down to Patrick Sullivan's in the Old City for a great show.

[jetboatguy]

I was actually thinking about the whole Glynn Johns 3 mic thingy lately... it seems like the interest in his method has picked up alot of steam on TOMB in the recent year.

I've tried his method in the studio with "great success !"... *says with a Borat accent*
although never live with PA / audience ?

In this footage of recording the Beatles live on the rooftop sessions, Glynn has obviously gone with only 1 centered overhead on the drum kit ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKbPSRyDo8

So, do whatever works for the given situation I guess...

[Drew's Analog Planet]

Here's the thing about this technique, and I know it's been mentioned before, but when that technique was in its heyday in the '60s and '70s, drummers were much more aware of playing to the mics than they are now. This is why I have experienced the idea failing (tried to mix a project that was tracked that way by another engineer -- yeah the micing was done right, but the drummer was bashing the cymbals and was generally oblivious to the micing). I'm pretty confident guys like Bonham and Ringo learned to play to the mics and "mix themselves".

Guys hit so hard lately, especially the cymbals and hat, that it's hard to mix even when you close-mic!

[jv]

In this footage of recording the Beatles live on the rooftop sessions, Glynn has obviously gone with only 1 centered overhead on the drum kit ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKbPSRyDo8

So, do whatever works for the given situation I guess...

Actually, check out the pics on this page:
http://www.maccafan.net/Gallery/GetBack ... ooftop.htm
It would appear that there are 4 mics on the drums: overhead facing down towards snare, another near the top of the floor tom (facing toward snare?), one on the snare and another on the bass drum. As I understand it, this is the definitive "Glyn Johns" setup.

[jetboatguy]

Ahhh yes...
I see the floor tom mic aimed at the snare now,
kinda fuzzy, but I do see it...
although, the overhead appears quite dead centere, compared to previous notes of the 3 mic Glynn Johns method... but hey, this is live recording ?

[scott oliphant]

if the drummer bashes the crap out of the cymbals, it's going to sound like crap. if he knows how to play well for recording (drums hard, cymbals not so much, decent kit) it'll sound great

[stuntbutt]

I agree about the drummer bashing the cymbals, and that is probably even more likely in a performance situation. Also, whenever I do the 3 mic thing, it usually requires som moving of mics and listening to the phase relationships. That's probably not possible during a live show.

[mrufino1]

I saw the faces on vh1 classic the other night. I've not really been a faces fan due to lack of exposure to their music (aside from playing "Stay with Me" in bands, but I hadn't really heard it), but the "Glyn Johns" setup caught my eye on this show, which was live in a studio in front of an audience, on the show BBC Crown Jewels, so I guess it was on BBC originally. All I can say is, even with the TV volume low (my kids were sleeping upstairs, couldn't turn it up), the drums and whole mix just sounded awesome. I also am quickly becoming a faces fan, they were really fun to watch. So it obviously can work. I've been really into omni mics on the drums lately (www.naiant.com are the ones I use, great and inexpensive), using a kick mic and one omni between the rack tom and snare drum, under the cymbals, and one between the rack and floor tom, again under the cymbals. I like to add a snare mic sometimes (or 2 snare mics), but if the snare doesn't need to really punch through like it would on a modern rock recording, I'm liking the natural sound just the 2 omnis and a kick mic are giving. Hope that helped in some way.

[jetboatguy]

very cool,

I'm going to look that up !