anybody using a MDC on snare top?

[nestle]

OK, another snare thread, I know...
I am absolutly hating my snare sound lately, unless heavily EQ'd I can't seem to get the snare I'm hearing in my head. Of course it starts with the snare, the room, the player, the mic and the pre yadda yadda..but no matter what variable I'm getting to much doink and not enough of the crack. Also I've come to terms with probably micing the bottom as part of the equation. At the moment I'm using a beta 57 on top and a sm81 on the bottom with a Ludwig snare that sounds good in the room, mono ribbon as overhead lately which I'm loving- I'm looking to get crack with no EQ. My Ideal would be something like "JumpingJack Flash", the Shaggs version of "Wheels" or the Beatle's "Rain".

I'm speculating that a medium diaphram condensor might be an interesting option. I Snagged a GT33 on ebay for 86 bucks, The GT33 because of the pad and roll off and cause if it takes a stick hit it seems like it would survive and for $86 I'm sure it'll be good for something if not this application (haven't got it yet). Also maybe the doink is a proximity effect??, has anyone tried an omni mic even though it seems counter intuitive? something like a EV635a?

Other mics I have tried are and don't like on snare.
414
441
421
57
baby bottle

Pres.
RNP thin for this app.
Germ -nice, thick
EH12AY7 -ok
RFT -great with EQ
Mackie -surprisingly good when pushed, maybe I like the distortion.

[digitaldrummer]

try cranking the bottom head on that snare as far as you can. then give it another twist just for good measure. You might be surprised. It seems like it would choke it, but it can really will bring out that crack you are looking for. also, use a coated head on top (ambassador or Evans G1). I'd check that before changing mics again.

Mike

[inflatable]

Dude, it ain't the mic. It's the drum, or the way it's being struck.

[cgarges]

try cranking the bottom head on that snare as far as you can. then give it another twist just for good measure. You might be surprised.

(With apologies to digital drummer) Yes, you might be surprised when the bottom head pulls out of the collar and you have to make a trip to the music store to get another head. Those bottom heads (if you're using an actual "snare side" head) are considerably thinner than most normal batter heads and can split if you put too much pressure on them. I've done it more than once. You should be able to get the head plenty tight, but just be careful about cranking the daylights out of it.

Dude, it ain't the mic. It's the drum, or the way it's being struck.

If he's happy with the sound of the drum in the room, I'd say it's a problem with translation of that, no?

Nestle, if you like the sound of the drum in the room and you dig what's going on in the overheads, I'd suggest trying a flatter, more accurate-sounding mic on the snare. The Beta 57 is a VERY colored microphone and might be accentuating the things you don't like about the drum. For getting the "crack" in a snare drum, I like mics that have detail in the top end without being too "peaky" sounding. For a good, "cracking" snare sound, my favorites these days are the Shure KSM141 and the Audio Technica ATM450. The EV 653A will certainly give you something different than the Beta 57, but you'll have to decide if the trade-offs of using an omni mic (more hi-hat bleed, less ability to creatively use proximity effect or change the general direction of the mic's pickup pattern) and the limited frequency response of the 653A in particular give you what you want, otherwise. They might.

Assuming the mics are nicely in-phase with each other, how does the kit sound without the snare mic? When you add the close mic on the snare drum, what changes?

I've not had any experience with the GT33, but I have used all the other mics you listed on snare at one time or another, with the exception of the Baby Bottle. While none of them are usually first-choices for me, I've had pleasing results with each of them on at least one occasion.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[nestle]

try cranking the bottom head on that snare as far as you can. then give it another twist just for good measure. You might be surprised.

(With apologies to digital drummer) Yes, you might be surprised when the bottom head pulls out of the collar and you have to make a trip to the music store to get another head. Those bottom heads (if you're using an actual "snare side" head) are considerably thinner than most normal batter heads and can split if you put too much pressure on them. I've done it more than once. You should be able to get the head plenty tight, but just be careful about cranking the daylights out of it.

Dude, it ain't the mic. It's the drum, or the way it's being struck.

If he's happy with the sound of the drum in the room, I'd say it's a problem with translation of that, no?

Nestle, if you like the sound of the drum in the room and you dig what's going on in the overheads, I'd suggest trying a flatter, more accurate-sounding mic on the snare. The Beta 57 is a VERY colored microphone and might be accentuating the things you don't like about the drum. For getting the "crack" in a snare drum, I like mics that have detail in the top end without being too "peaky" sounding. For a good, "cracking" snare sound, my favorites these days are the Shure KSM141 and the Audio Technica ATM450. The EV 653A will certainly give you something different than the Beta 57, but you'll have to decide if the trade-offs of using an omni mic (more hi-hat bleed, less ability to creatively use proximity effect or change the general direction of the mic's pickup pattern) and the limited frequency response of the 653A in particular give you what you want, otherwise. They might.

Assuming the mics are nicely in-phase with each other, how does the kit sound without the snare mic? When you add the close mic on the snare drum, what changes?

I've not had any experience with the GT33, but I have used all the other mics you listed on snare at one time or another, with the exception of the Baby Bottle. While none of them are usually first-choices for me, I've had pleasing results with each of them on at least one occasion.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Thanks for the insights, actually the ATM450 was on my short list of mics I was curious about for this and I do like the AT product line. What turned me off a little is it is an electret condensor and rightly or wrongly I assosiate that with a thin sound, but there is no sience behind this opinion. Also yes, I've kept an ear to phase issues.

This is an issue I've been hearing with diffrent drummers in diffrent rooms on diffrent kits, I knew someone would say "dude it's the player"....thats a big part of the sound but thats not what I getting at. What's frustrating me is I seem to get great sounds on everthing with good matched mics to the source to decents pres with No EQ, but the snare is still always requiring EQ. Maybe I need to just accept that, and get an EQ I really like and just accept thats the way snare will work.

[DGoody]

EQ it..... why not? With the exception of jazz records, or other soft, primarily acoustic records, I always grab an EQ on the snare.

You may like the way it sounds in the room, but the reality is that the microphone (translate - NO MICROPHONE IN THE WORLD) hears it that way, especially when you're just inches from the skin, right? A lot of it has to do with where that mic is in relation to the drum. There is no hard and fast rule, only taste......

Sometimes the old adage of "making it sound good in the room" applies not. I always get the best sound I can in the room, however I almost always grab an EQ on a snare, and twist the fuck out of it, until I get it where I want. There are so many variables that it becomes endless turmoil.....

Dude, if EQ works, then it works. I know you said you check phase, but double check it. Any phase issue DESTROYS drum sounds.....

[nestle]

Also I agree about the EQ stament above, I ordered that Chameleon labs pre with the EQ and will crank that sucker up without guilt.


OK, some insights from last nights session. For a very long time I have been going to 1/2 tape 15ips then dumping to protools, and I have been liking it alot for guitars and drums. I rewired my simple bay so I could go straight to my Digi002, whoa.. alot more crack all of a sudden. BTW, beta 57 top sm81 bottom > RNP -
Seems a good part of my issues might be from 456 being used over and over again at 15 ips affecting the transients, it sounded alot like a 30 ips machine does when I bypassed the tape machine. I'm coming back to digital in a big way, couple that with Quantagy going under I'm thinking about clocks and A/D rather than stockpiling tape. lol

[DGoody]

Dude, that will do it...... absolutely. Good call on that one.....

[LifeGoesOff]

I use a MDC 99% of the time on snare. It works perfectly for the 70's fat snare sound I usually go for on my own stuff. I usually use a Telefunken UM57 and then go into an eq to cut out some of the overbearing 200hz. Sometimes, if I need a little more of the snares, I've grab a cheap SDC. The Oktava MC012 works perfectly for that. I try to not reach for a dynamic for drums.

[joel hamilton]

Any of the mics I set up in the room with the drums should have the snare sounding good in it....

The close mic usually fills in the body of the drum, but all the rest of the tone comes from all the other mics to varying degrees... how can it not?

[wenley]

You all sounded great the other night. It was so easy to get a bead on the music with such good players, tunes and gear and so much fun to track in a new space. Sorry I couldn't make the gig tonight?currently enjoying a cold. Hope it went well. Let's do it again soon.

Alex

[Slider]

Try backing it off.
If you're into those classic drum sounds I wouldn't do the b57 up close thing.
From the tracks you mentioned as snare sounds you like, I think that distance is the way to go.
Probably the same reason you like the overhead sound.
I almost never use a close snare mic without EQing some top into it,

[nestle]

You all sounded great the other night. It was so easy to get a bead on the music with such good players, tunes and gear and so much fun to track in a new space. Sorry I couldn't make the gig tonight?currently enjoying a cold. Hope it went well. Let's do it again soon.

Alex

right on , nice job with the recording...let's stay in touch about next week, snare sounded great- Gig went well, The Royal Wylds were pretty good too.
nestle

[nestle]

Try backing it off.
If you're into those classic drum sounds I wouldn't do the b57 up close thing.
From the tracks you mentioned as snare sounds you like, I think that distance is the way to go.
Probably the same reason you like the overhead sound.
I almost never use a close snare mic without EQing some top into it,

Yeah, I'm with Joel in that I've always sort of blended the close mics into to more ambient mic's. Getting my basic sound from the OH or Room mic, but I was just frustrated about that crack factor on the snare, there just must be a way to get more of it on a close mic. but maybe it's all EQ..Haven't tried my new GT33 yet let you all know how my recent MDC purchase works

[moogplayer]

I've had success lately miking the snare shell. Try it for fun...