Creativity/being stuck, etc.

[alex matson]

This will probably be a long post, so I'm going to summarize, then spill.

Given that we are moved by musicians from Paul Simon to Zappa, should we try to assimilate our influences and forge them into something new, or decide to go down one road and stick with it and hope it's right?

Is it better to plan, then execute, or go with stream of consciousness when writing?
* * * * * * * *
I'm writing this having just had a conversation with one of my roommates. She's a sweet kinda hippieish poet whose main man is Ginsberg. One of the things that I always think about after talking to her is that for me, music is much less mysterious than poetry.
My influences range from John Lennon to Schumann to Bill Bruford to Boards of Canada to Tom Waits to Ween to you name it. I've been seriously moved by early REM songs with four chords and fusion/progressive rock that I still can't figure out. I do know that for me, the Beatles wrote with a deceptive simplicity that really shines under analysis (I'm referring here to a Berklee book I've been reading on John's songs.) Elliot Smith moves me in a similar way - there's always some unexpected chord, or else the feeling of the song just hits me that it doesn't matter that its C, F and G major - it works and seems new.
Now, I've written some songs, and feel like I'm a fair hand at appreciating the simple and tossing in some twists. But lyrically, uh uh. There are no 'Blue blue windows behind the stars' lines in my songs. They're a reflection of my obviously analytical self. There's emotion there, but not much to decipher - it's very plainly said.
There are times when it seems that being a musician and trying to be a writer seems like a curse. That I can't stop my mind from thinking about music anymore than I could ignore something stuck between my teeth. And I cast about for solutions - take a writing class, organize a songwriting roundtable, just write and don't critique, etc. It seems that every great song that I love as a fan becomes a wall I can't scale. I have a hard time conceiving of lyrics about the time I worked as
a cook in Delacroix, or saying that gold teeth and a curse for this town are all in my mouth, or that big birds flying across the sky throw shadows on our eyes - but I love hearing these things sung. Should I be taking drugs? =) I don't even seem to be able to decide to be sincere or absurd or confrontational or optimistic. And washing my hands of trying to write and go study real estate or something is completely impossible. Music is what I love, and sometimes it seems like the only thing that's a constant joy in this life.
So....can anyone relate?

[floid]

well...it probably took years of playing and obsessively analyzing to get to the point where you can appreciate the complexities of fusion, or figure out why a particular set of four chords sound so great in their context, right? And i'm just taking a shot in the dark, but how many hours have you logged on lyrics, comparatively? You give some great example lyrics, but maybe thinkabout it this way: when you hear a line you dig, how complex is your mental representation of it? Like a 10 yr old digging "Smoke on the Water" for the first time, or a record store owner putting on his favorite Bach side?
It's kind of that age old question of primacy: music or words? From personal experience, i know growing up i was a bookworm who constantly wrote two page stories that were lousy imitations of my last read. All the music i dug, i dug for the stories, not the music...until that one day when i suddenly realized the pleasures of the ear, and really just stopped reading, stopped paying attention to lyrics, just focused pure and simple instead of writing them, and then realizing i needed to get a little less derivative, start paying attention to interaction of multiple instruments, on down the line... I still wrote a lot, mainly lyrics, but thumbing through those notebooks now, i realize they were really just mnemonics for remembering a melody until i got home from school, instead of trying to get anything said, let alone artfully.
About three years ago the band in which i had invested way too much mental currency went belly up, and i said "screw this, i'm gonna go back to writing." and it was all the stupid stuff, keeping dream journals and typing out entire chapters of Kerouac and Gogol and Brautigan to lodge their wordrhythms in my brain and making myself write three poems a day for a month, all that crap, writing workshops where everyone tore apart the very things about a piece that i'd most enjoyed. I don't know if it resulted in actual improvement, but i do know that, since i've returned to my senses and realized i'm better off channelling my creative endeavors into the medium in which i have fourteen years experience rather than three or so, it seems like i have an easier time putting words to my music and music to my words...
my 2c, YMMV

[tfred812]

I think eveyrone who has respect for music and writing has felt what you feel.

That's why I also think cultivating a temporary, completely unrealistic (or hell, realistic) sense of superiority to your heroes is a handy technique for creators. There may be people out there who actually do hate the Beatles (hard as it may be for me to believe) but perhaps some are merely copping at attitude to avoid being psyched out by that unrepeatable example.

And: the plain spoken and simple is just as valid as the self-consciously poetic. Irving Berlin was as great a songwriter as Paul Simon. The artistry in Lou Reed's "Perfect Day" doesn't depend on flowery images or language; quite the opposite.

Also: The old line is sad but true: There no such thing as writing; only rewriting. Getting something down is only half (or a quarter) of the battle. So maybe you first go with stream of consciousness and then review, plan, execute, spot holes, exploit opportunities. Patterns will emerge. (Or they won't.)

[Boogdish]

This might not be helpfull, but here's something to try: Be a method actor when your writing.

Whose perspective are you trying to write from? If it's your own, and your a plain spoken person, then it sounds like your doing an ok job, your portraying the character.

It sounds like you want to write songs from somone else's perspective. Try to figure out the character, then try to mentally get into character before you write. See the world through their eyes, eat their breakfast, wear their shoes.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

you should be taking drugs.

[kayagum]

I'm surprised you're not already.

Seriously, how often do you play out live?

Audiences are pretty ruthless- they'll tell you what works or doesn't. Often, audiences will respond to, or pick up something even the author/writer/songwriter didn't intend. And most of all, audiences are the ultimate BS filter- they will shoot down anything that doesn't work.

Your responsibility is to put stuff out there. And take notes on how it goes. Decide how to incorporate the response. Repeat.

Edit: you seem to have a handle on non linear writing. It worked for Michael Stipe! Per advice in the subsequent post, ask a poet, like your roommate.

[Knights Who Say Neve]

Why not collaborate with a local poet? You don't have to do everything.

[alex matson]

I'm surprised you're not already.

you seem to have a handle on non linear writing. It worked for Michael Stipe! Per advice in the subsequent post, ask a poet, like your roommate.

I may have gotten high once or twice in my life. I was in a reggae band for six years...hard to remember!

But I was curious about the non-linear remark. What is that? Do you mean it when you say I have some skillz in this area? Typically, when writing or talking, I say a lot, and can usually articulate something eventually. I do wish I could get to the point more quickly.

I appreciate people's responses here, as always. This is my real name up here, and oftentimes I wish I'd picked an anonymous one when I go into these confessional posts. The suggestion that has stuck with me the most so far is floid's - it's true I've logged many more hours working on music than lyrics. Lack of skill leads to avoidance - reading something I've written that seems cheesy or derivative or just full of shit later is an unpleasant experience. And while progress on an instrument or knowing a good groove when I hear it is pretty easy for me now, knowing when I've written or even read a good lyric is like holding on to catfish. And the fact that opinions vary so much doesn't help. I'm always a little crushed when I read a scathing review of something I thought was pretty cool. But it's weird how often I've heard something new and immediately thought, "These guys have got what it takes" and found out that many people agree. The first time I heard Grandaddy, Grant Lee Buffalo, Built To Spill, the Shins, the Dregs, Bill Bruford, BOC, REM, and many others were all like that. When i was touring, it seemed every band that opened for us was really not that unique or great. I thought we had potential, but in hindsight, the band's best years were before I even joined, and all the musicianship and good intentions I tried to bring to the situation were lost in the face of the absence of the quality of the songwriting of the first few albums. That had a huge impact on me.
So what I've got at the moment is a bunch of songs without words, a few folky completed numbers, and a mountain to climb. I'm not afraid of hard work, and have structured my life over the last few years - quitting restaurant management because it took all my time, getting rid of all debt so that I can survive on about $600 a month, getting a job with lots of free time, building up a home studio, choosing to not get involved with another woman that I'm going to want to spend all my time with, learning guitar and bass, and trying to use my free time productively - so that I can do good work. I'm just wanting to continue to do the right things, and not waste time.
On a side note, I recently became aware that I work with a guy named Brian who plays in Menomena. I just bought two of their cd's today, and look forward to checking them out. So typical of the music scene - talented musicians bringing people their burgers and beer. But I'm so glad I live in Portland instead of a huge city.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i would say maybe try and hook up with someone who sings and writes words and see if that leads anywhere. maybe you just don't have the knack for writing words. and i don't mean that as a dis...i can't write words or melodies to save my life. i could devote all day every day for the next ten years and i still wouldn't be 1/10th as good as the singer in my band. so i am just really thankful we found each other....she's good at writing songs, i'm good at recording and arranging and all that stuff, and we make each other better.

so while its certainly admirable that you want to better yourself, and i am in no way trying to talk you out of it or anything...but maybe if certain things just don't come naturally its better to just accept that and instead focus on bettering what does come naturally, and work with someone else with skillz that compliment yours.

or just take more drugs.

[wedge]

There's emotion there, but not much to decipher - it's very plainly said.

This is *not* necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it can be a great thing, depending on how it's said; i.e., the delivery. For example, "Don't let me down!" shouted by Lennon. Or "Help!!!" for that matter. Incredibly straightforward, but very moving, because it came from the depth of his intestines before it even reached his diaphram...

David Bowie used an interesting technique to jog his brain and inspire lyrical ideas... He'd go through magazines and cut out words and interesting phrases, then throw them in a big pile on the floor, and sift through them and piece the strands together, building concepts and lyrics that way...

You might, then, build a song by using the Bowie technique for the verses, creating oblique, poetic images, then use your own technique of simple and emotional phrases for the chorus, in order to grab people's emotional interest...

[JWL]

I haven't seen your lyrics or anything. But judging by the way you write here, you have fairly complex thought patterns. The trick for a songwriter, I think, is to condense these different layers of meaning in the words. You can't really be a verbose poet (with a few exceptions).

I think you need to get to a point where you trust your stream of consciousness, to let it flow. Ideally, you record it in some way, either audio or word processor. Then you can edit from there, settling on a nice distillation.

Find turns of phrase that say many more than one thing.

[RefD]

+1 for collaboration where you make up for each other's apparent deficiencies.

i know i've certainly found the best results that way.

[ElMosca]

Is it better to plan, then execute, or go with stream of consciousness when writing?

I can relate. +2 for collaboration, but also +2 for developing your craft. Judging from what you just wrote, you have what it takes, but need to grow it.

Do take a writing class. Do embrace criticism (self and from others). Like any other ability, it has to be exercised, so write, write, write a lot. Then edit a lot.

I find that songwriters often come up with the music and then write lyrics to fit. They start with "da da da" or other "placeholders" and then slowly work it into a song. See if that works better than starting with a square poem and trying to fit it into a round song.

The cut-up technique described in another post (re. David Bowie), and the "slice of life" are great brain joggers. The "slice of life" is when you observe a situation and then attempt to recreate it in writing. Length should be one paragraph.

Don't be afraid of cliche, also. It is often a good starting point, especially if you're into irony and satire.

Don't let anyone fool you. Even "stream of consciousness" writers revise.
++aldo

[wedge]

Don't be afraid of cliche, also.

One of my favorite techniques is to use a cliche, then twist it in some fashion, so it's no longer a cliche...

[apropos of nothing]

Dunno if you've ever read a book called The Artist's Way. I don't know either if you should bother. It has one major point: you should write a lot. Every day.

The author recommends journaling for fifteen minutes sometime between when you wake up and when you start the productive portion of your day. She says that doing it then cuts off some of the barriers that the intellect throws between your creative mind and itself.

I'm not sure about all that, but I do believe that writing every day will help you be a better writer. I started blogging, and my writing has improved immensely. Same with my wife, and just about everyone I know who has taken up writing everyday in one form or another -- they improve.

If I'm writing lyrics, I prefer to write longhand. It makes one resist the urge to edit, which in the germination stage is the most crucial point. Self-censorship is death.

LATER, after you've written an excess of material -- enough for a ten minute song -- you can edit, and take only the best six ideas from the material. Chances are, if you've got enough stuff, you'll have an amazingly strong stucture already inherent in the material. Then you can simmer it to present the material in the most cogent form you can muster.

But beforfe all that happens, you gotta write. A lot. Every day.

Post on here. Start a blog. Write down your dreams, whatever. It doesn't matter. Just get used to looking at a slate and filling it steadily. Then when the really awesome ideas are around, you already know the craft so you don't get distracted -- you just do.