mixing for vinyl

[xonlocust]

i just finished a project that's coming out on a 7". dunno if there are many people here mixing for vinyl still - but i thought this might be a good thread to start some conversation on. share your tips/tricks, so that maybe if someone who hasn't ever mixed for vinyl, knows what to look out for...

[Rigsby]

I know that if you pan bass then they'll reduce the stereo width in mastering. That's pretty much all i've got.

[hiddendriveways]

+1
I want more info on this. Especially tips about doing this at home on a DAW.

I also need the dreaded "mastering at home" for vinyl tips. I can't afford to put out vinyl at all, but I really really want to do it. If I'm already speading myself so thin financially to press records, that the last thing I can afford to do is give a masting engineer a huge wad of cash. Sorry mastering engineers... but I can't afford you. So please save yourself the typing if you want to read me the riot act about DIY mastering.

So please, some tips would be nice.

That "home dentistry" ad in Tape Op is negative. Let's be positive.

[Al_Huero]

I've done several projects that have gone to vinyl; and the word I've gotten from the vinyl cutters is don't put a bunch of compression on the mix bus and watch the low end. Do a search on vinyl pressing plants and some of them have guidelines for preparing your mix. I've got a link to one at home I can put on here this evening.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

DON'T master your own records yourself at home! the world will crumble! children everywhere will starve!

ok, so mixing-wise, like rigsby said, keep the bass in the center. i believe you CAN have the bass panned and its not the end of the world, BUT that means they have to cut the record at a lower level, so be warned.

mastering-wise, just make sure the low stuff isn't out of control, and don't go boosting the super high stuff either. just focus on the mids. you can pile a bunch of compression on there if you really want, but what you don't want to do is put the limiter on at the end for level. vinyl levels are relative, and you aren't gaining anything by smashing it, unless you really WANT that sound. if steve berson is on here i'm sure he'll have a much more articulate reply.

[xonlocust]

i found a lot of useful info on the subject here:

http://chicagomasteringservice.com/vinyl.html

[MoreSpaceEcho]

damn, bob has a nice looking room there!

[Cellotron]

Bob Weston's new room does look nice - thanks for posting that link.

Anyway -
I've posted these suggestion on this board before - but here goes again:

Here's my suggestions:
* as far as peak levels - remember that digital dBFs does not equal analog dBVU!! The cutting engineer will still need to set the levels that are actually sent to the lathe. In general having your digital masters peak somewhere around -6dBFs is fine as it gives a little headroom and it's possible the cutting engineer won't have to attenuate it as much as if you have it maxed out - but in general as long there are no overs or clipping you can set your digital levels where ever you want them as the cutting engineer will set the levels to the lathe regardless and should be able to easily deal with it.

* center the bass frequencies - if you have things like two different simultaneous bass lines panned left & right or stereo chorusing or flanging effects on the bass it will make it extremely difficult to have your record cut with a hot level because if bass freq's aren't phase coherent the groove will actually become narrower in these parts leading to the potential for a skip.

* tame sibilance - it's a really good idea to run a de-esser on any vocal tracks that have a lot of sibilance. esses and t's can produce a burst of high frequencies which will just distort when played back on vinyl. The solution the cutting engineer can do to make sure this doesn't happen is to just put the whole mix through a de-esser - but it's a lot more transparent if you can take care of this during the mix instead.

* avoid excessive high end!! - ultra high frequencies above 15kHz tend to just cause distortion if there is a lot of them and if there are way too much of them will actually smoke the cutting head! Avoid boosting any of the highs above somewhere around 10kHz on your mix. If you are looking to add "presence" or brightness focus your boosts in the upper mid areas somwhere around 2-6kHz.

* don't clip your wave forms!!!! - clipped wave forms with squared tops will often break up really really quick when transferred to vinyl master at a hot level. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to clip your wav forms on a pre-master destined for vinyl. While it's a popular way to achieve extreme average levels for a CD master it will actually make the cutting engineer cut your record quieter than if you're wav forms have nice natural rounded tops. I've seen lots of people introduce clicks and pops into their master because they clipped their audio way too excessively and didn't notice it because of their crappy monitoring - so I think it's best to completely avoid this problem and make -0.3dbFs your output ceiling.

* go light with the limiter!! - while a little peak limiting to tame the big transients can actually be a really helpful for keeping even levels the current squash settings used on a lot of digital masters will actually make things distort more quickly because in overly limited material instead of the peaks on the vinyl master being nice round bottom transients all the upper mids are forced to the top too . Remember dBfs does not translate into dBvu!!! - the levels that go to your vinyl master are actually set by the cutting engineer - so if you're questioning how much limiting or compression to use communicate with the cutting engineer and let them apply what they see fit to do.

* keep it "clean" - any distortion in the digital realm tends to become more noticeable when transferred to vinyl

* sequence thoughtfully - the inner grooves will always be more susceptible to distortion than the outer ones - so it's always a best idea to keep the cuts you want to be the hottest for the 1st or 2nd tracks and have the last track on the side be an instrumental or acapella or quieter passage.

* keep the side lengths realistic. For max level (around +6dbVu) on a 12" "competitive" dance single keep the side length to around 12 minutes max for 33-1/3 and 9 minutes max for 45rpm.

For LP sides I'd say make 26 minutes a side your very maximum unless you want to possibly encounter problems with scuffing and low signal to noise ratio when the records are pressed. With long sides remember that the cutting engineer must make a compromise between bass response and level in order to fit more grooves onto the side - so if you want a really long LP side remember that you'll probably have to sacrifice some of the low end.

* make sure the heads and tails on the tracks in your premaster are clean and have good fades, and unless you want sound in your "spirals" (the wider grooves that are placed between tracks so that dj's can see where the next track is) leave at least 2 seconds between each track. It's also best to leave at least 10 seconds between tracks at the side break or provide the pre-master for each side on seperate discs or reels.

* communicate any requests or questions with the cutting engineer! This I've found is often the key to having you end up really happy. I also recommend getting an acetate or DMM reference disc made prior to having your masters cut so that you can be sure that you are happy with how your master sounds before incurring the expenses for plating and test pressing.

* provide good documentation - make sure you include a track list including track number and side and length of tracks and sides. If you're providing a data disc make sure that the names of your files on the disc match the names you have listed on your track sheet (or just name them something like A1.wav, A2.wav, B1.wav etc.).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sean Sullivan]

From what I've learned, in addition to what has been said, most frequency below 250K are going to get lost, so it might be best to cut those out of the bass and kick drum and try to make them sound good in the mix with a low-pass filter.

[Cellotron]

From what I've learned, in addition to what has been said, most frequency below 250K are going to get lost, so it might be best to cut those out of the bass and kick drum and try to make them sound good in the mix with a low-pass filter.

I'm assuming you mean 250Hz here and not "k." Anyway - this is kind of the start of the low mids and often has a good bit of the meat of the music (i.e. the 2nd octave of the bass and the fundamentals of things like guitars) and in general should not be cut unless there is a actually problem with the mix being muddy (in which case then - yes it is good place to check to see if a cut helps to carve out needed space). Regardless - transferring material in this frequency range onto a vinyl master doesn't get "lost" at all - it's just generally difficult to cut out of phase material below this frequency so you should in general try and keep freq's below 300Hz to be fairly mono-ish in your mix if you are wanting to have your record cut at the maximum possible level.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[johnchuckalumba]

hello, Ive been thinking about this since playing with the balance on Forever Changes by LOVE and some of Byrds Album, The notorious Byrds Brothers, which both sound fantastic and wide and both have drums panned one way and bass either on the same side or panned opposite. Tried it on a mix I was working on Putting the drums opposite the bass (upright) and was really happy with the sound.
My guess is that this might work better on some material than others. It sound sort of strange on head phones because Im so used to hearing things split evenly, but put it on a stereo and ask someone which they prefer and my guess is that they'll go for the split panning.
When I listen to the above mentioned recordings and compare it with other stuf i listen to It always sounds better even though it was recorded 30 years earlier.

john

[jonnymo]

Reviving an old thread rather than starting a new one as it's all parts of the same pig...

I attempted to master some songs for 7" vinyl. 4 songs, 2 on each side, just under 6 minutes on each side. Here's a comparison of the original mix for one of the songs and the test pressing I got back from the plant (the first song on the side, so it has the advantage of the outer grooves):

http://www.jonmonteverde.com/Amix.mp3
http://www.jonmonteverde.com/Avinyl.mp3

(I know there's some weird glitchy crap going on with the guitar, we tried time-compressing the whole thing to make it faster, which in retrospect I think was a mistake and was fixed.)

It's okay, but the esses distort a bit. So I read the stuff on this thread and this board and found that I was doing a bunch of the bad stuff (assuming -6 dbfs = -6dbvu, piling on the highs) so I de-essed the vocal and kind of threw a high shelf over the whole mix, and did away with some of the compression, to give the mix more dynamics:

http://www.jonmonteverde.com/Bmix.mp3

But here's what I got back from the plant:

http://www.jonmonteverde.com/Bvinyl.mp3

Which sounds MORE distorted than the 'A' vinyl. I know the surface clicks are specific only to this pressing, but that aside, how did I make the record sound WORSE on vinyl between the 'A' and 'B' mix? I feel like I cut too much high and high-mid. Did I make it too quiet? Too dynamic? (ie did the cutting engineer have to increase the overall level for the quiet parts, which made the loud parts distort) And some of the esses and tees are, of course, still distorting...

Is there anything I can tell the cutting engineer without having to make another test pressing that will improve the quality of the audio on vinyl?

Thanks y'all. Learning firsthand why people get paid to do this...definitely budgeting for outside mastering next time.