Clock and converters. Analog guy needs some help.

[Kyle]

These two things come up a lot. Can anyone help me wrap my mind around how these things work together to make better quality audio?

I have a digi002 rack and the ADA8000. Of course I want my stuff to sound the best that it can. Right now I have the ADA acting as a slave because I assumed the clock was better in the Digi. I have head the difference in having a better clock through the Black Lion site and Red Rockets online samples. Do the upgraded converters also play into the differece I'm hearing?

I?m considering the BLA upgrade and/or getting the Apogee Mini-Me (two channels of good conversion and a good clock). Where would the money be best spent in order to get the most out of my current system? Black Lion, Apogee, both?

Is it even possible to set the digi and the ADA to clock off of the apogee and would that help me get better sounding audio into the box and translate into better mixes?

thanks

[phantom power]

Sorry I'm of no help Kyle, but I 'd like to gain some insight on this as well. Figured I'd bump your post back up to the top.

-AE

[dirk_v]

I'm a huge fan of the black lion mod for the 002. The clock upgrade is definitely key to getting the interface sounding better. Using the Mini-me as a clock master would certainly make some improvement, but for the money I'd still vote for the mod. Search this board and maybe the Sound on Sound website (or others), or check out a book like Bob Katz's "Mastering Audio" to find out a little more about the technical aspects of clocking and jitter and you can make a more informed decision from there.

-dv

[Kyle]

Thanks for the reply.

I have spent quite a bit of time searching through the board and trying to read every post that I can but I'll still stuggling with this one.

Thanks for the tip on "Mastering Audio."

[runrunrun]

my modded digi 001 sounds pretty amazing...the 002 is the same or better. definitely worth it.

[dirk_v]

Even if you go back to check out some info on how basic PCM sampling (analog to digital conversion) works... a soundwave in air is converted to electrical current by a mic, and that current is 'sampled' a certain number of times per second (44,100 times per second in the case of 44.1KHz CD-quality audio) and then assigned a number based on its amplitude (0 to 65,536 in the case of 16-bit audio, or 0 to 16.7 million at 24-bit) which can then be stored as a binary number by a computer. When the computer reads this series of numbers back, each number is converted into a voltage again, and this voltage can be converted into soundwaves by your speakers.

Because the shape of soundwaves is generally quite complex, great accuracy is required to reproduce them faithfully, and this is where good clocking comes in. Errors in clocking can distort the shape of a waveform on its way into or out of the system, leading sounds to be recorded poorly, played back poorly, or both. You probably have already heard some of the descriptors people use to describe what this sounds like - 'poor imaging,' 'lack of depth,' 'blurred,' etc. You'll notice that none of these says it sounds awful or gross, just not great.

I'll attest that while the 002 never sounded 'bad' before I had it modded, it came back sounding great. Solid and defined. Classy. I'm also inclined to believe that a good internal clock beats clocking from another device (even a good one) since it negates the possibility of extra jitter introduced between the two devices from poor wiring, interference, etc.

-dv

[chadwick]

I got the black lion mod and enjoy it. I wish the upgrade converters were available when I got the mod but they weren't so I got the preamps and clock with much satisfaction.

I still have to work hard to get tones but the clarity, punch, and mix placement have all been dramatically improved.

I'm bent on experimenting with mic pres and starting with simple op amp ones and I'll move into the more familiar tube stuff from there.

[grayoxaudio]

After reading this thread I wanted add some additional points that I've found in some of my research. I'm currently finishing a masters in music technology and am doing a thesis on auditory differences in sample rates. Basically trying to provide some scientific proof as to why people hear differences and what benefits they may be to higher sample rates.

I agree with a lot of the threads above that a good clock can make a huge difference in the sound of digital recordings. Converters do play a significant role but it is the clock that really can make them shine. Good converters and a poor clock versus good converters and a great clock do result in auditory differences.

I have a 002 and the Black lion mod sounds really good. Getting back to the initial question of 002 vs ADA8000, I would probably use the Apogee as the clock source. I can tell you that the ADA800 and the Digi MBox (original) share the same converter chip. (That info I got direct from Apogee) We all know that there are a lot of differences between those two but my point is that adding a good clock to converters can make a big difference and is probably one of the best things you can do to improve your DAW.

[Kyle]

thanks to everyone who added to this thread, it's been very helpful.

[directaction]

although, since there is no bnc input on the 002, i wouldn't use the apogee as the clock source for that. the BLA modded 002 has a pretty damn good clock.

[@?,*???&?]

These two things come up a lot. Can anyone help me wrap my mind around how these things work together to make better quality audio?

I have a digi002 rack and the ADA8000. Of course I want my stuff to sound the best that it can. Right now I have the ADA acting as a slave because I assumed the clock was better in the Digi. I have head the difference in having a better clock through the Black Lion site and Red Rockets online samples. Do the upgraded converters also play into the differece I'm hearing?

I?m considering the BLA upgrade and/or getting the Apogee Mini-Me (two channels of good conversion and a good clock). Where would the money be best spent in order to get the most out of my current system? Black Lion, Apogee, both?

Is it even possible to set the digi and the ADA to clock off of the apogee and would that help me get better sounding audio into the box and translate into better mixes?

thanks

At 88.2Khz and 96Khz, your only option is the 002. At 44.1Khz and 48Khz, you should running your Behringer as the master. To my ear, the clock sounds better in that unit than with what Digidesign has sorted out through the software with the LE systems. At high resolution though, the Apogee stuff will kick ass over the 002 or the Behringer. It is that important.