drum submix question

[drewbass]

another thread got me thinking, wondering how others do this.

if and when you go to a stereo comp/lim for a drum submix (i mix otb, btw) is this:

1) - *after* you have already (if needed) comp'ed, eq'd gated and or limited parts of the the kit- snare, bdrum, toms, oheads? then, if so, do you use your stereo comp as a "glue"?

-or-

2) - do you send an unprocessed drum mix to the stereo comp and let that box do some work?

3) or yes to both?
4) or something completely different?

if you mix out of the box, i am especially curious how you do this. signal path, fav boxes and why. i'm really super curious now.

5) what is standard? (as a reference, for breakable rules)
6) what's not?

7) tony- do you have a starting place- a point of mix departure?
thanks,
drew

[Roc Mixwell]

Once you have shaped your drum tracks,
depending on your sense of aesthetic, there are a myriad of ways to process the sub-mix.

Adding a compressor to the overall balance of the drums can really add the "breath" and life to the picture of the whole kit. I would wait until you get 99% of the sound, then put the compressor over the tracks.

I like to do this in a parallel manor. I like to return the compressed signal to two channels on the console along with the dry tracks. I will set the compressor to act more aggressively and blend that sound into the dry tacks. This will give you a nice texture in terms of space. You can tame the snare and kick transients while maintaining the the original tone of the drum tracks.

I sometimes will put the compressor OVER the buss so as to "CRUSH" drum sounds.
It is really all up to your taste and style of music.

Try compressing the sub-mix in stages as well to really get a tight feel.
On the first stage, set the threshold to just control your peaks. Use a moderate attack and release on the first stage. On the second, lower the threshold and use a faster attack and longer release. I find that when I compress in stages I get better gain staging.

Check out the Vintage Design CL1 MkII compressor/limiter

http://www.vintagedesign.se/en06/enframe2.htm

Also check out the InnerTube Atomic Squeeze Box
If God wanted to compress his drums, this would be the one!!!

http://www.innertubeaudio.com/as_dual.html

hope this helps
peace
mixwell

[drumsound]

Here's what I do generally. I set a parallel comp for the drums, usually before I start a mix. It's not instantly up but its patched in and ready to go. I send the drum tracks to it using a bus on the console and return it to the last two channels.

I start getting the whole mix together with faders, pans and some EQ. Then I will pull up the drum bus parallel. At the beginning all of the drum mics go to the parallel. Depending on the tune, the vibe and a million other things they might not all be in the parallel mix by the time I print the mix. As I go along I'll continue working the whole mix and that will include EQ and possible compression on individual drum tracks so if they are EQ or compressed that is what is being sent to the parallel. It's very rare that I use a gate for a number of reasons including I don't have a really good one.

If I use effects on the drums they usually start not being sent to the parallel, but sometimes they also get sent there. I don't often use reverb on the drums, I'm actually messing with the room mics and the parallel comp. If it is set to a fast attack and release with a lot of compression it can sound a million times better than any reverb box I have (including my beloved TC M3000).

During the mix process I'm often going to the drum bus comp and making adjustments to see what is serving the mix best. I'm auditioning attack and release times, ration, compression amount, threshold and how much of the comp is in the mix. Some times I'm pummeling the comp but only using it sparingly in the mix, other times it's gently but louder than the individual tracks. Every once in a while I take the individuals out of the stereo mix and just have the drum bus comp. There are also times when I EQ the comp return.

I don't believe there is any standard per se. I know what I do and what I use...

For me 90% of the time my drum parallel is an RNC. You can do a ton of different things with that box, it can go super fast or more reasonable. It's got two modes of operation and a ton of control options. If a tune has the right vibe and more of a mid tempo I might use the Meek SC 2.2. And if I'm going really nutty I go through a Mindprint T-Comp with the tube saturation cranked and then through a second comp to get all Tchad Blake...

[JASIII]

For me 90% of the time my drum parallel is an RNC.

wow. I'm kind of floored by that. Not that I don't think the RNC is not a good piece of gear. I use mine all the time. I thought all you moderators got gold-plated 1176's and Fairchilds with diamond encrusted knobs! LOL


I use a similar process, except I'm ITB. I also set up a 'drum reverb' bus right away, and send all the drum tracks except the kick to it.

[drumsound]

For me 90% of the time my drum parallel is an RNC.

wow. I'm kind of floored by that. Not that I don't think the RNC is not a good piece of gear. I use mine all the time. I thought all you moderators got gold-plated 1176's and Fairchilds with diamond encrusted knobs! LOL


I use a similar process, except I'm ITB. I also set up a 'drum reverb' bus right away, and send all the drum tracks except the kick to it.

Sadly I don't have an 1176, or even a distressor...

[JASIII]

Sadly I don't have an 1176, or even a distressor...

Me either. I just abuse old, cheap comps like microlimiters and symetrix CL150's in to thinking they are a cool, hip comps like a distressor.

[drewbass]

adam and tony! thanks loads. this was exactly what i was hoping for in terms of a response (so nice when people don't slam you with a utfse).
thank you for your time.

although more responses would be very cool.
drew

[drumsound]

adam and tony! thanks loads. this was exactly what i was hoping for in terms of a response (so nice when people don't slam you with a utfse).
thank you for your time.

although more responses would be very cool.
drew

Glad I could help!

[mjau]

I'm mostly ITB, and totally amateur, so for what it's worth:
On a recent project I recorded and mixed, I found that I needed to eq a little body into the snare, a little mud out of the kick, and I rolled off some of the kick from the overheads - and that gave me the kind of balance I liked before adding a comp to the drum buss. I'd then slap a comp across the drum buss, but not so it was doing a helluva lot - and I'd slowly bring the mono room mic on the drums in (usually also eq'd a bit) until I felt it was giving me the ambience I was looking for. I tried setting up parallels but wasn't happy with any of it like that - but perhaps my next project will be totally different.

[drewbass]

hey mjau, i think it's worth a lot. thanks for the post.

i think any discussion of any variety of circumstances and the way someone did a mix, decisions they made (to do or not to do something) all inform others of the possibilities. regardless of hearing the music. they are new ideas i can try the next time.
drew

[T-rex]

Another total amateur here but my two cents, not too different from what I saw above.

I am mostly ITB but damn I have a couple micro-limiters and they make great drum bus comps if you want it really trashy but in a good way!

Anyway I usually start with the bass drum and work my way through the individual tracks to get any close mic's sounding really good together. Then I will send all of the drums to a single drum group with the vintage warmer on it on light tape compression about 90% of the time.

Then as I start getting the song together I will set up a mono send with a drum comp set to crush, either a micro-limiter, dbx160 or the waves renaissance comp (which is great IMO with the built in limiter). As I mix I will send the snare, bass drum and toms to the mono drum comp just for the attack of the snare and bass drums. A lot of the time I will automate this send so that when the chorus kicks in or things get crazy you can bring up the send and still get the bd and snare to poke through. It's also great to automate for tom fills etc. Also, I will sometimes send the bass guitar to this bus too. It keeps the bass present and centered and glues it with the drums a bit too.

So overall I have comps and eq on the single tracks, a mono send just to get thwack from the BD, snare and toms AND a bus comp on the drum bus just to glue things together. A lot of compressors but not a whole lot of compression. Other than the mono bus, everything else is just toughing the peaks for tone and a little control.

[joel hamilton]

I wind up with my usual stuff in place, like on the kick and snare, sometimes even the OH, and for sure on the room mics, for tone shaping and consistency, then I have a sum and difference type scenario with a mono "SUM" compressor, inevitably either a custom Mcmartin limiter or an inovonics 201 going through another comp and gate combo, with the comp setup with a sidechain EQ (just always patched). That is what makes the stuff that SUMS to the center image really rock solid, including toms, since I have them panned a bit, the SUM helps nail them to the middle even when the hit sounds a bit panned, the "bloom" happens up the middle for oomph... kick and snare go to the center, or SUM comp as well. I also have the "DIFFERENCE" comp setup, which is almost 100% always the Neve 33609, the original one, with metal knobs and the locking power switch, and that is setup in stereo, with again, the kick snare toms going to that one as well, but also the OH and a room or two maybe... sometimes...

Both of those comps are post fader, all the comps that are patched in place are PRE fader, so the mix changes how the bos comps react, but NOT the comps in place.

Gives you more "operating range" with your gain structure to really open up or close down a sound without EQ'ing right off the bat. That is also why I print room mics hot, so I can turn them down in the mix, and I print lighter on the kick and snare and toms so I can gain those up like crazy, and really make tem larger tha life, again, without tons , if any, of EQ... Makes the kit just sit really well, but get big and bombastic if you want, or just hold steady for you and get great tones that sound really balanced with air around them even in a dense mixx...

Blah, blah, and, blah...

[cgarges]

Sadly I don't have an 1176, or even a distressor...

Loser.

CG

[cgarges]

For me, it totally depends on the project. Like, EVERY TIME. Seriously. I don't have any sort of standard. Sometimes the drums get compressed in a subgroup, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have individual compression on them, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I'll start by taking the drums out of the stereo buss and sending them to a group and compressing the group insert. If that works well, I'll leave it. If not, I'll try for something else. Sometimes I'll start by sending the drums to a group and compress that while leaving the drums assigned to the stereo buss, in a parallel arrangement. Sometimes I'll start by applying individual compression and then deciding if the drums need something in a group. Sometimes I'll start by putting a compressor across the stereo buss early-on. Sometimes I won't. Sometimes, there will be absolutely no compression on the drums at all. It all depends on the project.

I will say that when I do compress drums in a group I'll often send certain things to the goupr and leave certain things out. This changes often, too, but almost every time the group contains the kick and snare. Often the toms. Sometimes overheads and/or room mics. I usually like compressors that have the ability to work fast (FET compressors are great for this). Some compressors that I've had good luck with in this application include Distressors, 1178, ADR Compex, Manley Variable MU, Neve 33609, ART VLA, FMR RNC, dbx 162, SSL quad comp, Audion PS 3010, Urei LA-22, Drawmer 1960, API 2500, Alesis 3630, MXR 136, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[jackson park]

this is a very informative thread. thank you participants...