Ribbon vs. condenser/dynamic on drums, opinion,ideas please

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

Post Reply
User avatar
veedub242
pluggin' in mics
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:18 pm
Location: Kenosha Wisconsin

Ribbon vs. condenser/dynamic on drums, opinion,ideas please

Post by veedub242 » Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 am

OK first things first. I normally close mic every drum. 57 on snare, d112 on kick, usually another 57 on the rack tom and a AT3035 on floor tom and using sm81's XY as overheads. Generally I can get a pretty good sound with this setup, until yesterday. I recently bought a Apex 410 ribbon mic for $80 bucks off of ebay. I thought this would be a great time to try it out. So I mic up the drum kit as I always do but this time I put up the Ribbon mic as a room mic about 5 feet back from the kick and about 9 feet in the air angled down at the kit. I recorded about 3 minutes of drums and went back to listen. I soloed the ribbon and was completely blown away. Not only did all the toms sound amazing the kick and snare had THAT sound. you know the Zeppelin/Flaming Lips sound, like its almost going to break up in a good way sound! I am looking to buy another one of these and stereo mic the kit using only 2 of these and a mic on kick and snare. What are the best ways to stereo mic using 2 figure 8 ribbon mics? Is there a way to do a MS using a ribbon and a cardioid?
any other thoughts on ribbons and drums? Thanks Ian

kayagum
ghost haunting audio students
Posts: 3490
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Saint Paul, MN

Re: Ribbon vs. condenser/dynamic on drums, opinion,ideas ple

Post by kayagum » Fri May 18, 2007 11:34 am

veedub242 wrote:What are the best ways to stereo mic using 2 figure 8 ribbon mics?
Blumlein is the classic method. Some people creatively use the null part of the pattern to exclude sounds (e.g. hi hat / cymbal).

veedub242 wrote:Is there a way to do a MS using a ribbon and a cardioid?
MS is based on pattern, not mic type. Try it and see. You won't hurt anything.

Roc Mixwell
audio school graduate
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:16 am
Location: Foxboro MA

Ribbon Techniques

Post by Roc Mixwell » Fri May 18, 2007 11:34 am

With ribbons, I like to do the 3 mic setup on drums.

One placed directly over the kit (or the drummers head), one in front of the kick (not too close) about 2-3 ft off the hole. One placed aside from the drummers right elbow about 2-3 ft back (floor tom side).

I have been using the Crowley and Tripp "Sound Stage" for this setup and have found that it works amazingly well for this type of application.

Using ribbons can be somewhat darker, however the C&T line seems to obliterate that idea. They are very open and natural sounding without all the bright harsh top-end.

Over all they exhibit a smooth, very musical texture that has a wide range of uses.
I like the three mic setup on drums because I can get the drums to sound big, without butt-loads of murky midrange from all the close mic's that could be problem later on in mixing.

As you said, that one ribbon in the room gave you THAT sound, which I would imagine is your sense of aesthetic and style of music.

I found THAT sound one day, when I was recoding vocals with a C&T "Studio Vocalist" at head level, four ft in front of the drum kit angled down. I was trying to reduce the wind blasts by aiming it down.

After the vocals were done, one of the guys jumped on the drum kit and started messing around. I was still in the control room with the mic still live and my JAW
HIT THE GROUND as I was listening to the kick.

check out the Crowley and Tripp Line

http://www.soundwaveresearch.com/index_proaudio.html

peace
mixwell

User avatar
T-rex
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2142
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:44 am
Location: Louisville KY

Post by T-rex » Fri May 18, 2007 11:35 am

Hey man,

I use an AT4033 or an AT 4047 with a Tape Op ribbon all the time for M/S and it sounds great. The 4047 timbre matches with the ribbon mic better, but sometimes the bright 4033 works better with the slightly darker ribbon mic for the reverb/room sound. If you have a DAW it is very easy to do and the M/S thing is really great. It will be totally different than just the sound you are getting with your ribbon because the condensor will be getting the full on sound while the ribbon will be picking up reflections. So if you are loving the way the ribbon sounds now, you may not like the M/S as much, but it's great for a lot of sounds.

1. You record the cardiod mic onto track one and center it.
2. You record the ribbon mic to two different tracks or record to one track and then duplicate that track in your daw.
3. Take the two ribbon mic tracks and pan them; one hard left and one hard right.
4. Flip the phase on one of the ribbon mic track's.
5. Adjust the volume of the center cardiod mic versus the volume of the ribbon mic tracks to give you more or less ambience.

Oh yeah, do a serach on the net for how to place the mics. Basically as close together as possible with the cardiod pointing at what you are recording and the ribbon at a 90 degree angle to the cardiod. So the ribbon is picking up the left and right sides of the cardiod mic.
[Asked whether his shades are prescription or just to look cool]
Guy: Well, I am the drummer.

johnmarkpainter
ass engineer
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: Nashville

Post by johnmarkpainter » Mon May 21, 2007 9:57 am

The problem with recording Drum Ribbons as a Blumlein or MS pair is Proximity.
Whatever the Ribbon is closest to will have more low End.
You will have loads of Kick and not enough depth from the Toms.

The easy solution is to line them up to the Toms and control the low end that way.
Adjust the Height to have more or less attack from the Kick.

I usually set mine up level with the Tops of the toms.
Put a Large Condenser a few feet in front of the Kick

jmp

JASIII
george martin
Posts: 1418
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:59 am
Location: On the Tundra

Post by JASIII » Mon May 21, 2007 10:50 am

I have 2 ribbon OH techniques that I use frequently.

I generally use a mono OH if I'm using a ribbon. I figure by using the ribbon I'm probably going for a ahem..'vintage' sound, so mono OH seems to fit that role nicely.

Sooo....I either place the ribbon as high as I can over the kit (I have OC703 'clouds' that hang sort of low) with one lobe facing straight down at the kit, like the early Beatles records used a Coles 4038.

Or, lately I've been experimenting by turning the mic sideways, so the lobes face right and left. I then place the mic much lower than normal. I do this to try to minimize the snare, or more often the kick, from coming through too much. I can place it closer to the cymbals and toms that way without too much snare/bass. I only use this if I know I want to get most of my kick and snare from their individual close mics.

Mane1234
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Houston

Post by Mane1234 » Tue May 22, 2007 5:53 pm

This past weekend I had set up a basic Glyn Johns with ribbons as the OHs but had to use a LDC over by the floor tom because one of the ribbons decided not to work. Not sure why yet...Along with that I added a close mic on snare and kick and then another LDC out in front of the kick. For being in a crappy rehersal space room everything came out pretty good although there's still too much cymbal wash going on so I need to work on my placement of the OH above the snare and as was previously suggested null out some of that open hi hat that was getting smacked a bit too much as well as have a talk with the drummer.

I really liked the quality that the ribbon gave overall. A little dark but still enough presence to tell what's going on. It picked up a lot of room which I'm not sure in this case was a good thing but this was really just a pre-production recording and if it came out good enough then they'll use it for MySpace music until the real project is done at a decent studio. I'm starting to be a big fan of ribbon mics. And by the way for all those who have suggested using an Audix D6 on the kick....Thanks.....that thing rocked....
Of course I've had it in the ear before.....

johnchuckalumba
audio school graduate
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:07 am
Location: New Forest UK
Contact:

Post by johnchuckalumba » Wed May 23, 2007 6:11 am

hello.
recent mic set ups that i keep coming back to on a 4 peice drum kit which is Glyn Johns inspired is....
coles 4038 6"to 12" over left tom.
414 over floor tom looking at snare.
AKG D112 kick inside.
KSM 32.. 7FT UP left side..45 deg ish 4ft out looking at the snare.
57 on snare top.
I've also found that the royer121... using the fig 8 pattern to reduce cymbal leakage.. is very nice on the kick if your after a mellow thud sort of sound.
john

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests