Recording Classical Piano duet with limited number of mics?

Tims96 · Post by **Tims96** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:25 am

I am recording a classical piano duet next week and am having trouble coming up with the best way to record it.

Piano 1 is featured, and is positioned on the stage as if it were a solo performance. Piano 2 is behind and to the side of Piano 1. I have two MXL 990-991 kits which I have available, but I am more limited by my computer. I've recorded 4 tracks at once on it with no trouble before, but occasionally it will hiccup and stop recording, so I would prefer to play it safe and use only two mics at once.

I was thinking an ORTF kind of thing using the 991s, placed somewhere where the audience would be (it's not a public performance.) The pianists are both excellent performers, so I trust them to control their own dynamics so that Piano 1 is more prominent.

Is this an acceptable way of doing this, or will I have better luck close micing each piano?

locosoundman · Post by **locosoundman** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:22 pm

What kind of piano's are these - 9-foot Concert Grand? 6-foot?

From your description, it sounds like the pianists will be sitting side by side - is this the case? Will they be removing the lid from the first piano?

Do you have any input on how the pianists will be arranged?

I am not familiar with the MXL mic's - do you have the option for 2 omni's?

Tims96 · Post by **Tims96** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:42 pm

They will be full concert grand pianos as far as I know, and I assume that they will be opening the lid to the first piano, if not both. I think that they will be sitting side by side, based on the description given to me.

This is being filmed for entry into a competition, so the first pianist needs to be the most visible, and the second pianist should not appear at all in the shot. As a result, I don't believe I'll have any input on how the pianos will be arranged.

I don't have access to any omnis, these MXLs are all I have. They are very cheap (100 for a set of two mics) but they're all I have to work with.

godwinaudio · Post by **godwinaudio** » Sun May 20, 2007 5:01 pm

Hey, first good luck.

I've had little experience recording classical piano, but a lot of experience recording piano in general.

I know, the gear you have to work with for this is a bit of a limitation. Maybe, I don't know if they would be up for it, but ask them if they would be willing to pay for the rental of a couple of mics more suited for this application. If so, let me know, I can throw a few recs. at you.

If not, just play with it. Explain to these people, who I am guessing are friends of yours, and not paying you (I could be wrong) that you have to work to find the best sound for them, and it will benefit them in the long run. So, put your headphones on, and move the mics until you find something you like. Record that. If it's good, great. If not, then keep moving them around until you get the best possible sound you can. Really, with limited gear, you have to try strange stuff.

Christopher Godwin
Godwin Audio

Tims96 · Post by **Tims96** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:19 am

You're right, the principal performer is my friend, and I'm not getting paid. He's submitting a video for a competition and wants audio that is much better than the camcorder audio. This means no matter how I record it he will be happy with the results, but I still want to get the best sound possible.

He won't want to pay to rent any more mics, so I'll just work with what I've got. Thanks for the suggestions though, I'll definitely experiment with a bunch of different sounds.

johnmarkpainter · Post by **johnmarkpainter** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 am

I think that I would use just two mics with one Mic on each Piano about 3' outside of the Lid.

You don't want the sound to be too present but the farther away the mics are, you are at the mercy of the sound of the room as well as their ability to 'mix' themselves to each other. Background noise will be crazy if you mic the pianos from audience perspective and they will sound really thin.

For Extra credit, I would also set up a Pair of mics as a spaced pair to use as your 'reverb' but ONLY if you are sure it won't case your computer to fail.
You probably just need a faster Hard Drive to record your audio to.
A 7500 RPM Firewire or USB2 Drive should do.

jmp

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Mon May 21, 2007 2:42 pm

I would just use two mics in ORTF somewhere that sounds good. you could get all fancy and spot mic each piano, but as long as they are playing well and their dynamics are good, no reason not to just use 2 mics. the mics you have are cheap, and I think that simplicity always wins with lower end gear. As I recall, they are very bright mics, and I would rather hear the presence peak from two tracks of chinese mics rather than a smeary, phasy buildup of four mics, all peaking in that same register.

good luck. recording acoustic music is really fun. just listen and move the mics around and have fun. you should be able to get a good product using two mics and some listening and careful placement.

cheers,
john

locosoundman · Post by **locosoundman** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:36 pm

I think it's pretty common to remove the lid from the downstage (first) piano - not just open it. On the upstage piano (second piano) the lid is usually open full stick. This is often the case when the pianists are sitting opposite each other - it kind of turns the two piano's into one big instrument.

ORTF is okay, but I find that cardioids generally don't do a 9-foot grand justice. Omni's are the best for capturing that nice meaty low end. If you have the option for omni's (and if the room is any good), I would hang an AB pair at about stage edge and even with the height of the fully open piano lid.

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:43 am

he doesn't have any omni's. read the post. obviously some Schoeps would sound nice.

john

CalibratedRecording · Post by **CalibratedRecording** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:27 am

I record classical piano on pretty much a daily basis as an engineer at Juilliard. Is the recording taking place in a studio or a concert hall? If it is in a small enclosed space, I would tend to limit the reflections of the sound waves and use a not-so-wide stereo pair such as a NOS pair.
However, if you are recording it in a hall, I would prefer to use a wider stereo set, such as a X-Y pattern which would give you a bit more of the flavor of the hall in your recording.

Also, try not to go over -6dB in the digital realm for this type of recording. There is no need to go to zero, so make sure you have the pianists play at their loudest and set your levels so they peak around -6db.

Let us know how it turns out!

locosoundman · Post by **locosoundman** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:10 am

he doesn't have any omni's. read the post. obviously some Schoeps would sound nice.

Sorry about that - I was half asleep when I posted.

Schoeps would be nice - but both MXL and Oktava make cheap omnis. Invest some money in yourself - having only cardioid mic's as a recording engineer is like being a carpenter with only phillips head screwdrivers. Sure, you can get away with it for a while, but one day you're really gonna wish you had a flathead handy.

not-so-wide stereo pair such as a NOS pair...
a wider stereo set, such as a X-Y pattern

I think you have your techniques crossed there. No doubt you are suffering from the same NYC recital/concert season burnout I am!

Ah, sleep - I read about it once...

CalibratedRecording · Post by **CalibratedRecording** » Tue May 22, 2007 11:23 am

oh crap, thanks for the correction. I was in between aligning our 1/4 inch machines and juggling phone calls.
yeah, I am stuck here until 11pm again doing the recital thing. I can't wait for summer.

Tims96 · Post by **Tims96** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:20 pm

First of all, thanks to everybody for the suggestions. They helped to give me an idea of how I should approach this, and I felt pretty confident going into the session today.

The recording took place in a small recital with a lot of hard, reflective surfaces. It was actually pretty atrocious. The ceiling looked like something out of the Titanic's engine room, and the walls where some kind of stone. I ran my cables, hooked up my interface, and set up the video camera to record the performance (to submit for a competition.) Anticipating some nasty reflections from the room, I set my two MXL small caps in ORTF in spot pretty close to the stage that sounded pretty good to my ears. I'll never know if this was the right choice though, because Pro Tools crapped out on me as soon as I tried to start a new session.

I couldn't figure out what the error message it kept giving me meant, and we were pressed for time, so we were forced to go ahead and just videotape the performance and use the camera's built in mic. It's not a huge deal because most submissions for competitions like this are done on camcorders, but my friend had hoped having some properly recorded audio would benefit him.

Like I said, I appreciate all the help from this thread. I was looking forward to trying all the different suggestions for placement, but once again my computer/Pro Tools let me down.

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Recording Classical Piano duet with limited number of mics?

Recording Classical Piano duet with limited number of mics?

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