Using 12AY7 for Direct Guitar Recording

rale · Post by **rale** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:27 pm

Is anyone using Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 mic preamp for direct guitar recording? I understand that a spearate DI box would be required for this (I use Countryman), but I was wondering what people's excpereiences with this preamp were when using it for dierct guitar recordings.

I currently use a modded Symetrix SX202 with Countryman and I wanted to find out if 12AY7 would be much of an improvement when used in this context.

I like sounds of Fender and Vox tube amps, and am not sure if this preamp is capable of imparting any of the magic associated with the sound of such amps (I realize it's only a preamp).

Also I would appreciate any comments on the kind of guitars you are using wihen recording throught this preamp since it appears that some DI boxes work better with certain kinds of guitars.

Thanks,
Rafko

joel hamilton · Post by **joel hamilton** » Sun May 20, 2007 1:10 pm

If you are playing to flatter the chain, it sounds great.
If you are playing to FIGHT the chain, and wishing it was a 60's blackface deluxe, you will be disappointed.

The 1ay7, just like almost any pre ever made on the face of the earth, can work for direct guitar, if you expect to hear something like a guitar, direct.

if you wish it was an amp, it wont sound good to you no matter what pre you use from the cheapest to the most expensive.

Pedals help.

rale · Post by **rale** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:09 am

Joel,

Thank you for the reply! This is exactly what I needed to hear.

If I can ask, what would you use in place of a miked amp, if conditions under which you recorded did not allow for the miking of an amp, and you had to go direct in?

What do you think of devices like Mesa Rectifier Recording Preamp or Signature Lexcion 284 (I understand this one has a power amp section too). If you were after those nice clean blackface tones or Vox clean tones, what would you choose for direct recording nowadays?

How do you think these guitar preamps (like Mesa recording preamp) fare against software modelers?

Have you had a chance to use Groove Tubes Brick? If you did, and if you needed something to, as you said, flatter the chain, and had at your disposal GT Brick and EH 12AY7, which one do you think would be your choice?

What is your favorite guitar preamp -- the one you would use to "flatter the chain"?

Thanks,
Rafko

slowblue · Post by **slowblue** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:27 am

I realize this may not be that helpful if you *have* to go direct, but why not go after something like the zvex nano head, 1/2 watt amp, into a 8" or 10" external cab. You can run it hot and it won't be that loud, I guess I'm saying if you can listen to music at your place you can probably mic this amp up and not bother anyone, well, maybe someone sleeping in the same room, but other than that...

http://zvexamps.com/

joel hamilton · Post by **joel hamilton** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:39 am

rale wrote:Joel,

Thank you for the reply! This is exactly what I needed to hear.

If I can ask, what would you use in place of a miked amp, if conditions under which you recorded did not allow for the miking of an amp, and you had to go direct in?

What do you think of devices like Mesa Rectifier Recording Preamp or Signature Lexcion 284 (I understand this one has a power amp section too). If you were after those nice clean blackface tones or Vox clean tones, what would you choose for direct recording nowadays?

How do you think these guitar preamps (like Mesa recording preamp) fare against software modelers?

Have you had a chance to use Groove Tubes Brick? If you did, and if you needed something to, as you said, flatter the chain, and had at your disposal GT Brick and EH 12AY7, which one do you think would be your choice?

What is your favorite guitar preamp -- the one you would use to "flatter the chain"?

Thanks,
Rafko

I wind up with some sort of pedal.... anything from the "dirty fucker" pedal by charrette electronics, to the hot tubes or english muffin pedal by electro harmonix.
Putting a good drive pedal in front of some sort of speaker modeling usually does the trick for me. A lot of what I do with direct guitars requires more processing... like recording direct with a pedal, or not, just using amp farm for a basic track, then either reampingor not, and if I dont wind up running through an amp I almost always run through something like a nice old tube limiter, even if it is not limiting... just for the tone. If i worked ITB, I would be looking for what pedal worked more for me. I actually like amp farm, especially once i learned to ignore the stupid names they give things... if I want drive I wind up with one model, or clean(ish) i use a different one... whatever suits the song and performance.
There are times when I intended to use my reamp, an actual reamp mind you, and I wound up NOT using it because the amp farm tracks sat just right and worked perfectly for the song and performance.

A lot of times, a pedal that is tweaked to sound good, with some lowpassing, can sound really good as well. For clean-ish type stuff, like the sound of a twin or deluxe cranked up, I will use the twin setting in amp farm, and not even really tweak it a bunch... maybe some console EQ, maybe a pedal on the way in, maybe nothing or maybe a ton of compression from something good...

Experiment. Have fun with it. It is a process that never ends...

darjama · Post by **darjama** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:49 am

I know there are people out there that get usable direct guitar tones, but I've rarely had luck doing it. Any chance you can record direct and reamp later? it doesn't need to be at a super-high volume.

rale · Post by **rale** » Mon May 21, 2007 1:57 pm

Thank you Joel. I don't know why, but I was stuck with a paradigm that one should try to use a traditional, relatively cleaner preamp on the front (in case you have to to reamp later), so I didn't do much experimenting with pedals, but that sounds like a good idea. At one point I was playing around using EH Wiggler and Art Levelar on the front (along with preamp), but I didn't really spend too much time with it.

I still have these pedals (and some other) and should spend some more time playing with them.

Thanks again,
Rafko

rale · Post by **rale** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:02 pm

darjama,

Unfortunately, my space doesn't fulfill minimum requirements for amp recording. I wish it did. But thanks for asking!

Rafko

Z MINOR SOUND · Post by **Z MINOR SOUND** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:21 pm

Buy a fender mini twin for 49 bucks. Track That with your favorite mic into your 12ay7, it might surprise you. If all else fails you are still the proud owner of a fender twin.

Shouldn't be too much of a noise or space issue.

??????? · Post by **???????** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:24 am

I think a lot of reasons people don't like direct guitar is that it is less 'forgiving' of technique, etc than an amp. An amp tends to 'smooth over' the edges, but direct is 'warts and all.'

Many guitarists, including Nile Rodgers and Prince, have gotten f-ing awesome direct guitar sounds and have recorded great DI guitar tracks.

But it is a "sound."

Supposedly a lot of the later Beatles stuff is exclusively DI guitar, but I forget where I read that. I think they used to overdrive the mic preamps on the console.

kayagum · Post by **kayagum** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:58 am

I think of DI guitar when you really want extra edge.

The best example I can think of is early Husker Du. Check out Metal Circus, Zen Arcade and New Day Rising.

Probable signal chain: Ibanez Flying V --> MXR Distortion --> dbx compressor --> Eventide Harmonizer (if using chorusing) --> board. Split delay if stereo.

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