Hammond M2 speaker wiring HELP!!!

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:53 am

paully wrote:
moogrock wrote:also how do i check and make sure it is a field coil?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hold a piece or iron/steel, such as a screw driver next to the winding cover. If it has a magnet, it will attract the metal. That's a normel speaker. If it doesn't, it's probably a field-coil speaker. Also, a check with an ohmmeter should produce a much higher reading than a normal speaker. According to the schematic in the link that I posted earlier, that impedance is in the range of 1000 ohms.. much higher than the more common 4, 8, 16 and 32 ohm 'normal' speakers.

Paul
Several things to make note of here....

"Normal" speakers have only two wires to connect them to the amplifier. A field coil speaker has at least four wires (two for the voice coil, two for the field coil).

The M2 schematic at the Captain-Foldback website shows the voice coil impedance is 8 Ohms, and NOT 1000 Ohms. 1000 Ohms is the resistance of the field coil itself.

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

moogrock
takin' a dinner break
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:35 pm

Post by moogrock » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:34 pm

so it appears i am dealing with a field coil.
which i know NOTHING about...

Image
Image

so here is what i neeed to know...

if i was to chop this organ down, which i intend to do, what are my options for dealing with this speaker?

ideally i would like to remove it completely and use JUST the output i added off the volume pedal, but... how realistic and/or easy is that?

any advice, tips, thoughts, etc would be greatly appreciated.. as i am going to start on this project very soon... and had originally thought that i merely was going to cut a speaker wire and replace it with a 1/4" jack.

help.
please.

User avatar
paully
pushin' record
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:20 am
Location: Northern New Jersey

Post by paully » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Paul[/quote]
impedance is 8 Ohms, and NOT 1000 Ohms. 1000 Ohms is the resistance of the field coil itself.Bri[/quote]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OOPS :oops: . Good catch, Brian. It's been 30 years since I actually replaced one of those things. Should have looked at the paper more closely. To correct what I said earlier, that 1000 ohm measurement doesn't apply to the actual speaker, so it's not a way to ID a regular speaker from a field coil speaker. The passive magnetism check with a screwdriver should still provide a clue, as well as the extra terminals.

FWIW, if the choke was replaced with a regular choke of the same value to maintain the overall operating voltages, and an 8 ohm speaker with a permanent magnet was installed, wouldn't that work for the M2? (OMG, I'm back in class :( )

Best, Paul
WADAYAKNOW.. For the first time in my life, I'm wrong again!

Freakmagnet451
gettin' sounds
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: The Great Northwest

Hammond M2

Post by Freakmagnet451 » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:00 pm

OK, maybe this is just crazy talk but couldn't you remove the basket, cone and spider assembly from the old speaker and just hook the wires from the output tranny to a normal speaker? You still have your choke coil that way, may need to position it for hum but a sawzall would make short work of the extra bulk of the speaker frame and you are good to go :twisted:
"There is never enough time to be in a hurry"

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:09 pm

moogrock wrote:so it appears i am dealing with a field coil.
which i know NOTHING about...

Image
Image

so here is what i neeed to know...

if i was to chop this organ down, which i intend to do, what are my options for dealing with this speaker?

ideally i would like to remove it completely and use JUST the output i added off the volume pedal, but... how realistic and/or easy is that?

any advice, tips, thoughts, etc would be greatly appreciated.. as i am going to start on this project very soon... and had originally thought that i merely was going to cut a speaker wire and replace it with a 1/4" jack.

help.
please.
That is definitely a field coil speaker in the pix you posted. (I collect antique radios hehhe).

Hmmmm...my first thought was to suggest yanking the output tubes from the amplifier to disable the drive to the speaker. BUT, that will likely cause the B+ voltage to soar. So, if you want to totally ditch the speaker, wire an 8-ish Ohm set of "dummy load" resistors in place of the speaker's voice coil.

An earlier posting in this thread linked to a 1960's Hammond service bulletin which recommended a 750 or 1000 Ohm (depending on serial number), 20 Watt resistor as a substitution for the field coil. That will keep the amplifier running. The resistor will need to be carefully mounted within the chassis so that the heat it produces won't melt something else in the vicinity.

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:00 pm

paully wrote:Paul
impedance is 8 Ohms, and NOT 1000 Ohms. 1000 Ohms is the resistance of the field coil itself.Bri[/quote]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OOPS :oops: . Good catch, Brian. It's been 30 years since I actually replaced one of those things. Should have looked at the paper more closely. To correct what I said earlier, that 1000 ohm measurement doesn't apply to the actual speaker, so it's not a way to ID a regular speaker from a field coil speaker. The passive magnetism check with a screwdriver should still provide a clue, as well as the extra terminals.

FWIW, if the choke was replaced with a regular choke of the same value to maintain the overall operating voltages, and an 8 ohm speaker with a permanent magnet was installed, wouldn't that work for the M2? (OMG, I'm back in class :( )

Best, Paul[/quote]

The physical construction seen in the pix posted clearly shows it is a field coil speaker....the "winding bobbin" is visible, versus a permanent magnet.

Somewhere I have a chart of the "standard" color coding for the wiring to a field coil speaker, assuming that Hammond's stuff followed the color code.

IF someone wanted to replace the speaker with a "modern" permanent magnet speaker, a vanilla 8 Ohm speaker would work just fine...IF the field coil issue was dealt with.

The field coil is indeed part of the power supply circuit, acting as a filter choke in addition to supplying the magnetic field for the speaker itself. The Hammond service bulletin linked in an earlier message in this thread suggests a 20 Watt resistor as a suitable replacement for the field coil.

A filter choke would perhaps be a better solution. Hmmmm....750 or 1000 Ohms at 100 mA. Triad and Hammond Manufacturing (no relation to "Hammond Organs") are the only remaining makers of chokes that I know of, at least as catalog items. No luck with either.

OK, so be it. Hammond Organ's service bulletin "blessed" a 20 W resistor as a sub for the field coil. There's the answer.

Bri

PS, I am a HUGE fan of Hammonds. Buy a tube of oil to keep the gearbox happy.

My current studio install project includes a PRIMO-condition B3 and a 122 Leslie as part of the gear in the tracking room. Ohhhhh yess!!!! Smoke On The Water... lol!! The growl of a B3 and 122 with the "expression pedal' mashed to the floor is part-and-parcel of the sound of rock and roll. Or, if you perfer your Hammond/Leslie combo to be a tad less distorted, "Green Eyed Lady" by Sugarloaf is the consumate Old Skool rock song with Hammond all over the place. And, let's not forget Booker T. and the MGs.

PPS, Back In Ye Olde Daze (1970's), the keyboard player in a local band owned a Hammond "A", which had a tag stating it was built by the Hammond Clock Company. Great info here about Hammond Clock, etc:

http://thehammondorganstory.com/

Hammonds kick butt.....and the gearbox, drawbars, etc. are a testament to Old Fashioned American Ingenuity. Don't get me started <g>. Uh..oh..."start" "run" switches hahahha. I can hear the gearbox turning as I type this....and it's a marvelous sound.
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:32 am

Woohoo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1PHk9FhIk

Green Eyed Lady, released when I was still in High Skrewl in 1972....

Check out (approx) 2:50 and 4:30 into the song. B3/Leslie 122 all over the place, with "tremelo" and "chorale" speeds on the 122. Flick That Lever for the Leslie!!

At 4:30, serious "chunk" via the "percussion" tabs on the B3. Classic sound (Chorale speed on the 122). Key Clicks as well. In later years, Hammond actually had to add "clicks" as part of the B-3000 digi-sound organ. Somewhere I have B-3000 schematics which include a "click generator".

At approx 6:40, hear the 122 Leslie rev up from Chorale to Tremelo! <g>

IIRC, that was cut at Goldstar in Hollyweird. Very dry drums, vocals sound like an LA-2 or LA-3 or 1176 set "on stun".

More recent...Booker T. can still make a Leslie growl, although Steve Cropper stole the stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdj970vqyOU

Stax Records yes. and yes again.

And spinning gears, and spinning speakers?? Oh My!!!! <g> The Essence of R&B and rock!

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

User avatar
paully
pushin' record
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:20 am
Location: Northern New Jersey

Post by paully » Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:12 am

brianroth wrote:Woohoo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1PHk9FhIk

Green Eyed Lady, released when I was still in High Skrewl in 1972....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First the fun stuff. At that time, I was working as a B3 player con los 122s, and the pressure was on to learn that tune exactly. I heard that the guy's B3 was wired so that the tone generator could be turned on and off while leaving the preamp and Leslie on. That's how he did the wobbles at the end. Hey, that B3 put me in the $$hole for like 2 years, so that little trick was bypassed. Great song tho.

As long as B3s/122s are mentiioned, it dawned on me that the standard 122 tube amp has a very large choke in it on the power supply. Offhand I don't know the impedance or rating in Henries, but I do have a couple extras downstairs. If they're in the same ballpark, they're probably still available from Hammond-Suzuki (for the M2 speaker swapout and choke replacement). I'll measure them later.

Best, Paul
WADAYAKNOW.. For the first time in my life, I'm wrong again!

User avatar
kickoldman
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:47 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Post by kickoldman » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:08 am

Here is an article specifically dealing with getting line out from a spinet (any of the m series, for example). It's from the same Hammond Wiki I linked before: http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/LineOutFromASpinet

To me it looks like it will take two resistors to take care of the two coils: A 1000 ohm 20 watt for the field coil, a 8ohm 10 watt for the voice coil.

There is also this method, which seems a little harder: http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/Gett ... ePhonoJack

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:31 am

Paul...it would indeed be a simple matter to cut the power on/off to the gearbox while leaving the amplifier alive. However, a local friend/Hammond owner from Back In The Day discovered he could emulate the Green Eyed Lady trick by merely switching off the "run" switch for a second or two. There was enough "residual juice" in the Hammond's amplifier (caps discharged slowly enough) so that the gearbox would slow down, and yet the amplifier stayed online.

Re. the choke for a 122....my service manual doesn't list a Henries value, nor a resistance value. At this instant, I'm thinking that the 1960's service bulletin from Hammond Organ (linked in an earlier message in this thread) is the best solution when swapping-out a field coil speaker with a permanent magnet speaker. I drew a blank looking through the Triad and Hammond Manufacturing catalogs as I sought a choke with 750 or 1000 Ohms series resistance.

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:01 am

More Hammond Organ links:

http://www.sl-prokeys.com/prokeys/pro.htm

(And there are Stax Stories at that same website):

http://www.sl-prokeys.com/stax/stax-story.htm

Gearbox oil:

http://www.goffprof.com/shopping.jsp?p=39

It just dawned on me that a M2 doesn't have the "percussion" tabs as found on the M3 or the B3.

http://www.theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/files/m3.html


Did I mention that I'm a HUGE fan of the machines sold by Lauren Hammond and Don Leslie??? <g>

In a related thread, use your favorite US Patent office search engine, and look up patent number 3,644,657 which describes a Leslie "simulator". It was marketed under the moniker of "Frisco Spin", and I probably have some sales literature about that system in my file cabinets.


Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:14 am

kickoldman wrote:Here is an article specifically dealing with getting line out from a spinet (any of the m series, for example). It's from the same Hammond Wiki I linked before: http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/LineOutFromASpinet

To me it looks like it will take two resistors to take care of the two coils: A 1000 ohm 20 watt for the field coil, a 8ohm 10 watt for the voice coil.

There is also this method, which seems a little harder: http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/Gett ... ePhonoJack
8 Ohm "dummy load":

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... age=search

25 Watt "dog bone" resistors for the field coil:

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/630/528.PDF

EDIT: Hot off the scanner....field coil wiring color codes:

http://www.brianroth.com/library/fieldcoil-wiring.pdf


Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

moogrock
takin' a dinner break
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:35 pm

Post by moogrock » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:57 am

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/LineOutFromASpinet

that's the mod i did to get a line out...
sounds great... esp with it loud.. distorts almost any pre-amp and just gets soooo much growl out of it...

so if i used this dummy load and dog bone way of writing the field coil.. how would i wire this?
im a little unsure because, like i said, i know NOTHING about field coils... i now understand the basic theory at work.. but i have no idea how to do this...

you guys are amazing... this msg board alllways blows my mind...

User avatar
brianroth
tinnitus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:32 am
Location: Oklahoma City

Post by brianroth » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:33 am

moogrock wrote:http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/LineOutFromASpinet

that's the mod i did to get a line out...
sounds great... esp with it loud.. distorts almost any pre-amp and just gets soooo much growl out of it...

so if i used this dummy load and dog bone way of writing the field coil.. how would i wire this?
im a little unsure because, like i said, i know NOTHING about field coils... i now understand the basic theory at work.. but i have no idea how to do this...

you guys are amazing... this msg board alllways blows my mind...
I HOPE there are only 4 wires connected to the "field coil" loudspeaker, and the RETMA color codes I posted earlier match up with your system.

The "dog bone" would have to be installed inside of the Hammond chassis, and would be wired in series with the black/red and yellow/red RETMA wires. IOW, the dog bone would replace the field coil.

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
http://www.brianroth.com/

moogrock
takin' a dinner break
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:35 pm

Post by moogrock » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:01 pm

soooo...

the "dog bone" serves basically as a field coil?

then do i still need to attach a dummy 8ohm load in lieu of a speaker?

sorry i am asking so many questions... there is just a completely new concept to me and i do NOT want to injure my precious precious organ...
and all of the info i can find on the internet about this assumes that you know a lot about this system already...
which obviously i do not...

thanks again and again.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: T-rex and 160 guests