mixing a power trio

[JASIII]

I've been working with a traditional rock power trio (think gov't mule doing elvis costello-esque tunes). I'm undecided about the best way to approach the mix. Specifically how to pan. I'm used to multiple harmonic instruments, like guitar, keys, etc, where you just offset and balance them left and right. What do you guys do with trios? Do you pan the bass and guitar opposite each other? Panning bass seems wrong to me for some reason, like it needs to be in the center with the drums to provide a solid foundation. On some of the tunes the guitar player/songwriter/singer has recorded 2 rhythm guitar tracks..no problems there. But on a couple he doesn't want a second guitar track, so I have nothing to pan opposite the guitar. I think it sounds out of balance to have one guitar panned with nothing on the other side to balance it. Maybe I'll just do it all in mono.....

[MoreSpaceEcho]

nothing wrong with mono. maybe put a little reverb on the guitar and pan that opposite the dry track, van halen-style?

[qball]

You can create a pseudo stereo guitar by 1) copying the guitar track and add 10ms delay to one nad pan opposite, 2) Copy the guitar track and EQ the two differently and pan opposite, or 3) Do both.

If you want the stereo effect to be on the vox, try making two duplicates of the vocal track and change the pitch up by a few cents on one while dropping the pitch a few cents. Pan those track oppisite and leave the untouched vocal track up the center. Blend to taste.

Sometimes mono works best. Sometimes mono with a stereo effect. Try a few of these and see which compliments the song best. Less is more in most cases.

[Gummy]

Try two mics on the amp and pan them L/R. Watch out for the phase.

[JASIII]

So panning bass is out? BTW I'm done tracking, mixing stage now.

[chris harris]

why not pan the bass if it sounds good?

I've done things where we multed the bass, distorted the mult and panned it opposite the guitar track.... just blend in enough of the distorted bass to balance the mix. keep the fat clean bass up the middle.

[kayagum]

The more counter-melody the bass is carrying, the more you can pan to the side. If the bass is more tonic and rhythmically working in sync with the bass drum, the more it can be in the center.

Listen to other power trio recordings, and hear how they do it. Off the bat, I can think of the Jam, Husker Du, and even Dinosaur Jr (who I saw last night- holy crap, J Mascis is loud!)

[JASIII]

The more counter-melody the bass is carrying, the more you can pan to the side. If the bass is more tonic and rhythmically working in sync with the bass drum, the more it can be in the center.

Listen to other power trio recordings, and hear how they do it. Off the bat, I can think of the Jam, Husker Du, and even Dinosaur Jr (who I saw last night- holy crap, J Mascis is loud!)

Hmm..interesting, thanks. The bass is more of melodic element in this case.

[RefD]

So panning bass is out? BTW I'm done tracking, mixing stage now.

Live At Leeds!

[Rodgre]

I think it totally depends on the band, the song and the overall vibe.

My band, The Curtain Society, is a three-piece, but with a very layered sound, so there are lots of guitar overdubs and ear candy. Even if it's a stripped-down song, the guitar is at least doubletracked, or recorded in stereo.

Another band I recently mixed, The Howl, is more of the classic Jimi Hendrix Experience/Cream style power trio, and I took some liberties with the mix, with a few tunes with a lone guitar panned at 9 o'clock, and bass at 3 o'clock and drums in mono, while an overall stereo room reverb gelled things together.

Most of the time, I would take a single guitar track, recorded in mono, and pan in off to one side, but also send it to a stereo delay with something like 10ms on one side and 20 ms on the other side, then EQ'd the delay to be dark. If you mess with the delay times and which side has the shorter and the longer time, you can get a nice convincing sense of guitar coming from one side, but still heard in stereo. It's best if it is subtle, but you have to experiment to get the blend.

Sometimes, I would hard pan the guitar, and put a dark sounding "analog" slap on the opposite side for some spread, but it has to work for the song.

Depending on the vibe of a record, mixing in total mono isn't against the law, either. If you have some stereo spread on the vocals, or with some delays like I mentioned above, you can get a rich sounding mix without having to go crazy with panning.

Another technique I used with the Howl was to mix things with the drums in mono, guitar a little to one side and bass a little to the other, but put an overall stereo room on the mix. When I track a band, I typically have a mono track of a "barn" mic some 20' feet from the band, tucked around the corner. This is the secret weapon to gel everything together. Put a smidge of dark and short reverb on that track and the whole mix has a sense of stereo presence. If I am mixing something and there is no "ambient" track, I will bus whatever I want to have the effect on it to an aux track, eq it really dark, and no real bottom, compress it and either do the stereo delay or the tight, dark reverb on it.

Again, it all depends on the song, and the vibe of the record. A trashy record can have hard panned things that leave the left and right unbalanced and still sound cool, while a produced rock band might sound lop-sided. There are no rules though. If I recall, the first two Van Halen records were with the bass and drums up the middle and the guitar panned off to opposite sides with a reverb on the other side. There's also a ton of stereo reverb too.

Roger

[JASIII]

thanks guys, some really good ideas.

[drumsound]

If you have not yet tracked how about a stereo room mic for the guitar in addition to the close mic, like a reverb patch, only real.

[mjau]

holy crap, J Mascis is loud!)

My ears are still ringing from the dino jr show I saw in '94 when I was 17.

[mRG]

if the bass sound is an ampeg-y type clanky sound with a lot of upper mid stuff going on, a crossover type approach for the bass can be good. split the bass into low and high, keep the real low end stuff central but move the high stuff out to the left or right to balance the guitar.

[floid]

you can find some cool stuff multing it through different compressors, or an amp sim that allows you to switch cab sizes (probably wouldn't want to actually use the "amp" if there's a way to bypass that part). tweaking around with these can make certain notes and chords more present on one side or the other. if the guitar is fairly dynamic, multing to a light gate can do a fair job of making it sound like there are multiple pick attacks.
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