Snare Track, to much Hat

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overseer
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Snare Track, to much Hat

Post by overseer » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:01 pm

Hello all,

We're working on our first album, and trying to do it on our own. We've got some prelim tracks done, and this is one of the first issues I've come across. My snare drum track has way too much hi hat bleed in it.

I am working in Sonar Pro.Ed. 5 and I can't seem to EQ it enough to get it out with out the snare sound suffering. We may end up going back through and recording the drum tracks again (much to the chagrin of our drummer), but I just thought I'd stop by here to see if any one had any suggestions.

If we do go back and record the drum tracks again, I am open to EQ suggestions for the snare track too. The channels on our mixer have a 3-band EQ with parametric mid band offering an extremely wide swept range from 0.1 to 8 kHz. The link below is to an unedited snare track.

http://www.voidbase.com/snare.mp3

Any help/suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Thanks,

OvrCr

christiannokes
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Post by christiannokes » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:06 pm

Place the snare mic so that it is facing away from the high hat, or somewhere that it is picking up more snare than hat. This means re-recording and experimenting, listening, and comparing over and over again until you find the "sweet spot" where the hi hat is least heard.

You could also see if the drummer is able to hit the hi hat softer if you do decide to re-record.

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Randy
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Post by Randy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:08 pm

I just opened the file and put it into Digital Performer. It's in stereo and the two channels don't match. Are there two different mics involved, or is this a bounce from a panned track?

I put it through a de-esser and it seemed to really tame the hihats. What system are you running on? Are you able to get a plugin like Digital Fish Phones' SpitFish? That one should do the trick.

I haven't had luck with EQ in this type of situation. Mic choice and placement has worked wonders. It sounds like you used an omni mic for the snare, or a supercardioid with the back lobe pointing at the hats. If you are using a mic with a tight cardioid pattern, I would point it across the top of the snare or at the shell. If you angle it at the drum the back lobe is gonna get too much hihats.
not to worry, just keep tracking....

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Post by christiannokes » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:10 pm

also, is the hi hat very loud in the overhead mics? that will make the hi hat louder too. If so, then do the same careful placement of the overheads to where the hi hat is not so loud in the mics.

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Randy
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Post by Randy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:12 pm

Here's a link to the Fish Fillet plugins:

http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.p ... &subItem=5
not to worry, just keep tracking....

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roscoenyc
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Post by roscoenyc » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:11 pm

lighter sticks can help. If the guy has nylon tips talk him out of those too.

smaller hi hats (I have a set of 12"s that work sometimes)

bottom mic (could be much cleaner plus you could use it as a trigger source later)

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Post by ??????? » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:27 pm

nobody has mentioned using a de-esser during tracking. This is what I have done in the few cases that I have thought that hi hat needed to stay out of the snare mic. I second the notion of a bottom snare mic at the very least to use as a trigger later.

Also making use of your mic's pickup pattern, understanding where the null(s) is/are and using that to your advantage. This might mean putting the null on the rear of a cardioid mic very near and pointed directly at the point where the stick hits the hi hats, and the lobe of course pointed at the snare. Positioning thusly can take a bit of finessing but works surprisingly well. Also I know Bruce Sweiden has a little dead board that he puts between the snare and the hats to eliminate bleed. That's a little extreme but Thriller sure as hell does have some pretty boss drum sounds.

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a

Post by C_R_J » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:30 pm

a little bleed never hurt anyone...

or try messing with a gate...

or with EQ more...

i assume you have a mic on the hihat and at least one on the snare right? what i do is solo the snare, get it sounding how i like, and then solo the hihat and do the same, and then bring them all together and tweak away. panning can bring alot out in a drumset. i go for the panning associated with the recording sounding like you are behind the kit, and not in front of it, usually.

just keep messing with it. and never base your assumptions about how it sounds on anything soloed. play everything back, and if it sounds fine, go with it.
time is money and im wasting both...

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Post by GooberNumber9 » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:52 pm

Other ideas:

Use thinner and/or lighter hats.

Try to find a bigger room.

Gently talk with the drummer about playing the hats more lightly.

Listen carefully to popular recordings and honestly assess how much hat there is in some major label releases.

Let the track stand as a record of the performance. If the drummer thought that was the right amount of hat, maybe it is.

Todd Wilcox

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farview
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Post by farview » Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:49 am

I just listened to the track. It's the drummer. There really isn't much you can do with a guy that beats the crap out of his half open hats while gently tapping a badly tuned snare. I would just use drumagog to trigger a snare sample.

I don't know when this started happening, but sometime in the last 20 years or so, drummers forgot that a drumset was one instrument - not a collection of different instruments. It should be up to the drummer to control the dynamics and 'mix' himself to a certain extent. If the hat is supposed to be secondary to the snare in that song, the drummer should have played it that way.

[edit]Unless you did something strange and used an omni mic on the snare or put the snare mic a foot away from the snare, it' all on the drummer.

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Slider
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Post by Slider » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:25 am

Yikes!
This guy is barely hitting the snare at all. getting a trigger that isn't all over the place might even be tough with this track. It seems like the player has issues, but it is possible he actually hears it balanced this way. You never know.
I'd lavel out the hits a bit with automation before carefully using drumagog if this was my mess to clean up.

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farview
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Post by farview » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:00 pm

With drumagog (assuming you can get it to track this performance), you can go to the advanced page and turn down the dynamic tracking. that will even out the dynamics of the performance without having to do any automation or editing.

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the riff
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Post by the riff » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:29 pm

You can also try taking the inside of a roll of toilet paper and cutting to place around the snare mic. I have found this to cut down on bleed quite a bit. I usually gate my snare as well. I will usually talk the drummer into hitting the hats softer or even raising his or her hi hats... My .02

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roscoenyc
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Post by roscoenyc » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:55 pm

the riff wrote: raising his or her hi hats... My .02

that is a good one

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Slider
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Post by Slider » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:24 pm

farview wrote:With drumagog (assuming you can get it to track this performance), you can go to the advanced page and turn down the dynamic tracking. that will even out the dynamics of the performance without having to do any automation or editing.
I actually loaded it up just for a second and it's not pretty.
The dynamic tracking turned down turns the softer rolls into jackhammers. It also is mistriggering quite a bit. I think with some serious EQ feeding drumagog and some careful adjustment it could be done, but it wouldn't be easy. My trick is to automate the snare trigger track pre drumagog and keep the dynamic tracking as natural as possible without it getting out of control. I'd still blend the real snare in as awful as it is.
What's up with the stereo file BTW? It's hotter on one side.

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