comp/limiters in series for vox: fast, slow, order etc..

[runrunrun]

i know there isnt going to be a hard and fast answer, just curious as to what others are doing.

say i am doing vocals and tracking with a compressor, taking off a few dbs, and then doing a few more at mixdown.

what are the advantages to doing the limiting first and then compressing or vice versa? do you tend to use something with a slow attack first and then something quicker or the other way around. any other tips for chaining comps on vox?

[Mane1234]

Based on something I read in a previous post which served as just a random starting point since I'm new to stringing compressors as well I use someting to just get the peaks on the first comp, so pretty fast attack and fast release with a high threshold and maybe about a 2:1 ratio. Then the next one is going to be something for trying to fatten up the vocal and make it sit in the mix if it needs it. Probably like either the Meek plugin or the Urei LA 4. So moderate attack and quick release and whatever ratio I need. Nothing severe though. I'm still working with all this but so far but the basic principle was, and I think it was something Joel posted which was along the lines of why try and make one compressor do everything. Line up a couple and get them to do different things. I've tried a few different arrangements especially on the mix buss...sometimes it works and sometimes it sounds like crap.

[mwingerski]

When I do two compressors in series like that, I like the first one to be the "tone" compressor that's slower but fattens things up, usually an LA2A and then the second compressor will grab the fast transients that might slip through after it (usually a distressor) in order to prevent peaking.

[allbaldo]

I've got no hardware comps, so I'm using plugins.. usually a McDsp CB1 set to a fast attack and release, followed by a Massey CT4 with a slow attack and a medium release. I've tried doing slow attack first, but I seem to like fast attack first more... for reasons I can't put my finger on.

[qball]

I've thought about this technique many times and have used what makes the most sense (in my own twisted mind). The interesting thing though is that most indicate that they put the compressor before a limiter. This is backwards to my reasoning.

My theory is to place a limiter in front of a compressor to trim off the stray transients so that the compressor won't kick in too early due to the stray transients. This compresses the main core of the audio more consistantly and reduces the chance of pumping....at least in my own twisted mind

[leigh]

My theory is to place a limiter in front of a compressor to trim off the stray transients so that the compressor won't kick in too early due to the stray transients. This compresses the main core of the audio more consistantly and reduces the chance of pumping....at least in my own twisted mind

Yeah, that's been my thoughts as well about putting comp first.

Remember, though, the divide between theory and practice in pro audio. Some compressors could sound better when hitting them with the full, non-limited transients. Maybe that extra touch of input stage saturation would help a track cut through better.

In the end, IMHO it's best to understand the pros and cons of doing either comp->lim or lim->comp, and make informed decisions case-by-case. To this end, it's good to think it through, as you have done.

[joel hamilton]

Regardless of the ratio at each stage, stacking up time constants is what makes things really pop without a lot of obvious artifacts.

Gain staging is crucial at this point... finding the sweet spot of each device in the chain, and the structure that really floats the vocal in a nice place sonically as well as in relation to the other elements/tempo/voice/etc/etc/etc....

Adding one thing to a critical chain makes the gain structure variables stack almost exponentially, so be prepared to make some decisions.... it is not uncommon for me to have 5 or more compressors on a main vocal in a dense rock mix. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on how squeezed it was on the way in, and how I want it to live in the mix.

Sometimes I will pick off the signal after the first comp, and give myself a send to the verb from that part of the chain, so the verb actually "blooms" a little in the big sections, because the send is from a point in the chain where the vocal still moves around a bit dynamically, but I will then keep layering ratios and time constants until the vocal just hangs right where I want it. I will have multiple insert points... like on just at the pre-eq insert, one post fader, and one "before the console" from the tape returns and returning to the line in at the channel. I will almost always put a pultec in that slot, and some other compressor after the console EQ... I like driving the compressor down with some low end in the voice sometimes, rather than high passing, to get the mids to feel even across an enire performance... getting the low end in the voice to slam something pulls the comp down across the mids really well. That also gives me a shot at de-essing with a plug in before any of this madness, and maybe a massey CT4 after that just tapping things before heading out to my chain. I will also take an aux, post fader, to some sort of tape echo, but I will use the soundtoys echoboy coming out through the whole chain, because it gets ducked by the vocal, but opens up when the compressors lay off for a second... just a timed 1/8th note usually, just to put some "glow" around the voice on release.... helps make the release times feel more like an ambient spae that is reacting to the performer....

Anyway, I could rant about this for days.

[theemasquerade]

joel...please do.

[Red Rockets Glare]

I like to use the medium attack and release on my TLA-50 on a vocal going in, taking off no more than 3 dB,
then on mixdown I'll send it through the TLA-50 again on slow attack, medium release getting pretty heavy, maybe up to 6dB reduction, or maybe the LA-4 and then the 1176 set to catcth only the fast stuff fast attack fast release, 1 or two dB reduction.
I also use the Waves De-esser on the vocal before it leaves the box and that seems to help a lot.
It's pretty important to see what your signal looks like with and without your compressors in, to see where all you makeup gain is coming from. Using the makeup gain on a Tube compressor is a lot different than using the make up gain on the 1176, each has it's own use.

[mjau]

I'm on a UAD card, mostly...
I like the combo of the LA2A or Fairchild plug followed by the new LA3A on limiter, just tickling the gain reduction slightly. The 1176 or 33609 plugs work well as limiters/second compressors also, but not quite like the 3A does.

[directaction]

I almost always start with a fast-attack setting. It's the same logic as putting a limiter first in the chain, but it sounds smoother to me.

[Blue Room]

it's the UAD Fairchild/LA3A combo for me ....sometimes I'll go the Sonalksis 315 route as well. Sonalksis for singers, UAD combo for singers.

Joel, great info man!

[joel hamilton]

Another random thought:

There are certain pieces of gear that I find to attenuate better than others... like the amp stays pretty linear and doesnt sound "covered" or "closed down" even when I am using the box like a fader after a box that does NOT like to turn down.... if the sweet spot of one piece is pretty hot, like more than your insert point wants to see, then having a couple of boxes around (like a 160X or A) that dont "mind" being turned down a bit can really get you rockin... I usually use one of the VOCE compressors for that sort of thing.