Mixer choices!! VCA's or no VCA's. Heeeelllllllllpppppppp...

[pandemic]

Hi all!
I am getting ready to purchase a console for my studio and I have a choice between one with VCA group and mute automation and one without VCA's.
The consoles a Cadac A series and I believe that one does not use VCA's on the fader path. I understand how VCA's work but what I want to know is if they will degredate the sound quality.

The consoles are about the same frame size (36 in for the VCA board, 32 for the other one) and the big difference seems to be the groups and midi mute automation.

So the question is......
If I have a choice between an analog path through the fader or the fader controlling a VCA which do I choose?

Any help would be great!!!!
Amos

[xonlocust]

fwiw - based on what i've read/heard, the non VCA path is the cleaner option. what you gain in automation/recall-ability comes at the cost of a slightly degraded sound. sometimes you'll read aobut people mixing on the monitor sections of consoles for this reason.

i think it's more of a how you want to use the console question. and perhaps auditioning how big the difference btw "cleaner" and "not cleaner" is. i'm not sure any of us could give you a definitive answer on that.

[joel hamilton]

They are both analog. I personally would choose the NON vca version, but that is me.
All but a few of the VCA based consoles, in the price range you are talkng about, sound MUCH better WITHOUT going through the VCA's. Even on an SSL 9k, you may or may not want to really make sure you are mixing as close to unity gain as possible, so you are not starving every channel of "oomph" with the fader pulled, and therefore voltage (or not enough) not really letting the VCA sing.

You will find that there is a wider sweet spot on a non VCA console, for sure. COmpare even the mini faders sound on an MCI 500 series console to the big faders, all grouped up and ready to automate all that mushy, grainy, not so punchy sound you are getting (with improper gain staging). I have heard ONE, yes ONE great MCI 500 console in the whole country, and that is at Westend Studios in Kansas CIty. Mike miller really made that thing kick totall ass with about a zillion mods and TONS of great updating to the signal path, including Dbx gold VCA's. I personally would rather have (and DO have) moving fader automation and latched actual relay bsed mute automation. Unless you are ONLY doing stuff on tape and really need a TON of automation options, forget it. Get the sound right and do the mutes in your DAW of choice. Upgrading a console without VCA's is also more worthwhile, as you can really make the channels sing with the right component upgrades/swaps/customizations and not have all that just bottleneck at the VCA that has been in there a million years now anyway...

Just my 2cents. Hopefully someone else who has mixed on a bunch of different stuff like I have will post... ( calling cgarges? maybe dokushoka? )

[FormulaReed]

I would go for the non VCA console, basically for the same reasons that Joel Hamiton said. When I was looking at consoles I had narrowed it down to two Sony 3036 and I was amazed how much better the non automated one sounded. I felt like the top end had sort of smeared sound to it and lacked clarity in the low mids.

Best,

Reed

[pandemic]

Thanks for the replies!!

I was leaning towards the non-VCA board myself but I wanted some affirmation. The consoles in question are older Cadacs and the one I listened to (VCA) was unbelievable. The non-vca console is in a case so I have not really had a chance to even see it, although I'm told that it is in nice condition as well. The VCA board is a 36x10 while the non-vca is 32x?.

I have my choice of consoles but I feel the dealer would rather sell the VCA board as it is out and pretty much gone over while he would have to unpack the other one and start going through all the channels.

I do have a time crunch as the the guy selling (and reconditioning) the consoles is moving to CA. I'll call him tomorrow and see if I can see the other console.

If it turns out that I can only get the VCA console is it that bad???
Remember that these are really high end consoles so is the VCA going to make that much of a difference. Bear in mind that I am upgrading from a Behringer DDX3216 so anything will be better (almost anything!!)

Thanks in advance. I know these are dumb questions but I have been looking for a analog desk for a long time and I would like this to be the only one I buy for a long, long time!

Thanks!!
Amos

[joel hamilton]

. I felt like the top end had sort of smeared sound to it and lacked clarity in the low mids.

The CLASSIC old VCA sound. Exactly. Smeared, grainy top, weird, twisted low mids that dont seem to want to sum at the 2mix without swamping headroom and not really adding any oomph to your mix... and you sit there wondering what YOU are doing wrong!!!

[pandemic]

So I had them pull both consoles and I recorded audio through both. I did not hear any major difference in the sound and the non VCA console was waaaaaay too big (40+24 channels) and not quite as pristine, so I am going to do what every red blooded american would do......I am going to buy them both. Studio B is about a year out and I will need a desk for that room too.

The Automated A has been installed and we have been doing some test recording and I love it!! I am only able to get 8 in and 8 out until my new snakes come in but so far the mixer sounds unbelievable!

The cabling involved has been incredible!! Since there are no tape returns and the console is not big enough to set up as a split I am wiring everything to thru patch points (36 console ins, 36 direct outs, 36 sends and returns, 10 buss outs, 6 aux outs + I/O for my limited outboard and external pre's). Lukily the guys that sold me the console also just hooked me up with 30' of 40 channel multicore so as soon as my connects come in I should have everything covered.

I'll keep everyone posted and thanks again for all the advice!!
amos

[cgarges]

Just my 2cents. Hopefully someone else who has mixed on a bunch of different stuff like I have will post... ( calling cgarges? maybe dokushoka? )

Yeah, I agree. And there are different extremes in different consoles. I think the Amek Angelas sound pretty great when "driven" a bit, even with something like Optifile automation, although they are noisier. A Soundcraft Ghost with Optifile, however, is much grainier-sounding and exhibits more crosstalk when "driven."

If I were custom-building something for myself and budget was not a concern, I'd definitely install Flying Faders (the official Never/Martnisound thing) because in addition to being really easy to use, it's also pretty great-sounding. But if I were buying a used console, I'd have to weigh the options in terms of sound vs. functionality. I don't really use mute group automation ever, so for me, your choice would be easy, but if you were looking at something based on fader automation, you'd have to decide what's more important to you and your work- fidelity or functionality.

By the way, kudos to buying both!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[pandemic]

Some pics finally.....

[inverseroom]

That's a beauty!