keep the room mic

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drumsound
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Post by drumsound » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:09 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:ok sorry, i got totally sidetracked yesterday....here's a mix in progress...just a lazy late night jam, i'm playing drums and rhodes, my friend is on bass and monosynth and the intro drums. the room mics come and go, easy to hear the difference...sorry it's kinda quiet...

disclaimer: i suck at the drums.
Sounds great. The BD is killing me!

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Post by dokushoka » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:04 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:ok sorry, i got totally sidetracked yesterday....here's a mix in progress...just a lazy late night jam, i'm playing drums and rhodes, my friend is on bass and monosynth and the intro drums. the room mics come and go, easy to hear the difference...sorry it's kinda quiet...

disclaimer: i suck at the drums.
Cool little jam. The snare does sound phasey to me though, like the room is knocking it out and making it sound weird.
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:10 am

doesn't sound phasey to me but whatevs. my point was just...for the purpose of this discussion, here's a song with the omni room mics stupidly compressed and really loud in the mix and it doesn't sound washed out or uncentered. IMO.

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Post by dokushoka » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:16 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:doesn't sound phasey to me but whatevs. my point was just...for the purpose of this discussion, here's a song with the omni room mics stupidly compressed and really loud in the mix and it doesn't sound washed out or uncentered. IMO.
I'm not trying to piss on your parade here, but the drums DO sound washed out and don't really have a strong center image. A/B your mix with a commercial release with something similar sounding.

Zero 7 has sort of similar arrangements to your song so its somewhat applicable as a comparison. Listen to how the snare sounds in all these songs:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... 5&s=143441

It, other than the vocal, is the most focused element of each of the tracks. In modern music, you just cannot underestimate the importance of getting the snare sound right. It is a HUGE part about what makes an impression on the listener!
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Post by T-rex » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:45 pm

While I agree with Dokushoka that the snare is really important, I like the snare sound on the rough mix you put up. I really don't like the way the Zero 7 snare sounded at all. This is just what I heard on the first song, the rest sounded like samples or loops but it's just itunes 30 second tracks so I dunno.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. . .
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:40 pm

dokushoka wrote:I'm not trying to piss on your parade here, but the drums DO sound washed out and don't really have a strong center image.
i don't see how it's washed out when you can clearly hear every note i play, and the drums aren't covering up everything else in the mix, but hey, we can just disagree.

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Post by dokushoka » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:43 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
dokushoka wrote:I'm not trying to piss on your parade here, but the drums DO sound washed out and don't really have a strong center image.
i don't see how it's washed out when you can clearly hear every note i play, and the drums aren't covering up everything else in the mix, but hey, we can just disagree.
On small speakers the crash ride (or just a BIG crash) totally overwhelms the snare and kick. The toms are also somehow more forward then the snare which feels very unnatural. The snare is in the back of the mix instead of upfront. I am basing my opinions off commercial releases and what's sort of typical for them.
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:57 pm

if that snare sounds back in the mix to you i dunno what to tell ya. my ears must be wired backwards from yours.

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Post by dokushoka » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:59 pm

Send me like 20 seconds of all the tracks and maybe I can show you my perspective.
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Post by ??????? » Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:35 pm

For the sake of argument:

Not everybody is trying to make commercial releases.

Also, not everybody feels that the sound of modern commercial releases is something to which we necessarily should all aspire.

I totally do not think 60s Rudy Van Gelder recordings are somehow inferior to modern commercial releases because the snare doesn't punch as hard and it doesn't have fake reverb. Or whatever.

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Post by dokushoka » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:02 pm

brad347 wrote:For the sake of argument:

Not everybody is trying to make commercial releases.

Also, not everybody feels that the sound of modern commercial releases is something to which we necessarily should all aspire.

I totally do not think 60s Rudy Van Gelder recordings are somehow inferior to modern commercial releases because the snare doesn't punch as hard and it doesn't have fake reverb. Or whatever.
I agree with you here as context obviously plays a role when choosing an aesthetic. Van Gelder's 1960s recordings aren't really comparable as they are from a totally different era and a different genre.

I love "indie" music and have worked with 100s of indie artist and one thing I have learned from them is that 90% of the time, the "indie aesthetic" really hurts people's perceptions of the music (this translates into lost sales, to, obviously.)

The sad fact is that if you don't present your music with an aesthetic that most listners are familiar with (ie FM top 40 radio) they're going to shy away. Obviously, there are some exceptional artists who overcome this, but they are really the minority.

So, for me, if an artist is recording their music with the intention of presenting it to others, a modern and commercial aesthetic makes sense. If its a recording done for themselves or for a small group of fans, then why not do whatever you want as an artist?

I have lots of close friends who aren't music nerds and whenever they hear roomy drums they say that they sound "funny", "weird", or "unprofessional." I strive to create mixes that will draw those kind of people in so that the music, the artist, and the song gets a fair shake.

For my own vanity record I was working on recording the entire thing live with no overdubs and just a stereo mic. I had no plans of selling it, though. ;-)
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Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:35 pm

so in your opinion everyone should be listening to more current FM radio and trying to make our stuff sound like that?

what if an artist is recording their music with the intention of making something they like? and trusting their aesthetic enough to think that maybe if they like it, someone else probably will too.

do your friends like the way the drums sound on 'when the levee breaks'?

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Post by ??????? » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:07 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote: do your friends like the way the drums sound on 'when the levee breaks'?
Or maybe you could frame it in reference to one of the several hip hop tracks that sampled that beat! :D That would really be a good way to get a fair answer, for some listeners.

In any case, it's not always all about money, success, or fame. Many people especially on this forum are more concerned with making and recording music they can feel good about and are proud of. That's all I was getting at.

If I made rock records that sounded like 60s RVG records, I would not consider myself a failure nor would I consider it "stylistically inappropriate" or some other such. That is, if it got the point across. In fact, I've often dreamed of accomplishing just that. But I understand I'm probably in the minority on that one.

I know it's gotten really old and predictable to be anti-corporate and hate clear channel and all that, and I promise that's not where I'm coming from. I just don't personally tend to often care much for the sound of many contemporary commercial recordings, sales be damned, and I'm certain that I'm not alone in that. Maybe it's because although I was born in 1980 I grew up listening to my parent's record collection because that's what was was around. Who knows/cares.

I do not doubt that the sound of old and/or less-perfect (intentionally or not) recordings may not be universally related-to by many of people of generations my age and younger. But that is not to imply that it's somehow pass? or inappropriate to have old, weird, characterful and f-ed up sounds like roomy drums on a modern recording. Nor is it to imply that it can't be to some degree at least marginally comercially viable.

Just look at the Daptone guys. They sold a few copies of that Sharon Jones record, now didn't they? And not to withering 50-somethings.

In any case, it's a funny thing about people who need/want advice. They tend to ask for it when they need/want it. :wink:

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Post by RefD » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:17 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:so in your opinion everyone should be listening to more current FM radio and trying to make our stuff sound like that?

what if an artist is recording their music with the intention of making something they like? and trusting their aesthetic enough to think that maybe if they like it, someone else probably will too.

nonono, it's all about the lowest common denominator! :D
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Post by mcmurrich » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:46 pm

wow. the records i make with big room sounds are the ones that people freak out about and other people call me up and say hi can you do that with my record? it sounds amazing! i've never made records for anybody but artists. kids who listen to shitty radio don't hire me. just adult musicians. i don't get caught in the flavour of the month mode. i make them how i like them and when people hire me they come looking for that and i don't have to do anything i'm not comfortable with. i.e. cookie cutter modern production.

give me lots of room. fuck myspace and computer speakers and mp3s and anything else that has contributed to the downfall of great records. if doesn't work in this age i know i'm doing something right.
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