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dokushoka
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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:04 pm

do you really believe this stuff or do you just put your fingers on the keys and type whatever?

when the levee breaks
the meters
'mushroom' by can
phil fucking collins
police 'ghost in the machine'
breeders 'pod'
shellac '1000 hurts'
Those songs are all very much exceptions. I think we can pretty easily identify the drum sounds of the 70s as being very dry and dead (with the Bonham exception), the 80s ushered in loads of digital reverb and gated effects, the 90s were kind of the beginning of the "radar blip" drum sounds where the close mics were brought up more and samples were starting to be used. Then the indie craze began and it was all about getting room sounds.
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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:07 pm

it absolutely does. those drums sound horrible and fake and the whole sound of the record i find annoying and unpleasant to listen to. to me it sounds like a plastic facsimilie of a rock band. i'd rather just hear the band. i don't like the sound of in utero either, but at least it sounds like a rock band in a room together, rocking. nevermind sounds like drum samples and 3k.
I could see how you feel that, but my point was more that the production on the record spoke to a whole lot of people, obviously. Kurt wrote some great songs and that album presents them in a way that millions of people "got them." I think that is a really beautiful thing and when I hear a track from Nevermind on the radio today I think it still sounds so much better, aesthetically, then what all these bands are trying to do now. To each his own though.
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Post by drumsound » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:14 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
dokushoka wrote: because Andy Wallace did all that stuff, do you think it HURTS the artistic vision of Nevermind?
it absolutely does. those drums sound horrible and fake and the whole sound of the record i find annoying and unpleasant to listen to. to me it sounds like a plastic facsimilie of a rock band. i'd rather just hear the band. i don't like the sound of in utero either, but at least it sounds like a rock band in a room together, rocking. nevermind sounds like drum samples and 3k.
I am sooooooo with you on this one. I think Nevermind sounds like shit. It is full of amazing songs that are played well. The vocal is compelling on many of the songs, which is what most people really latch on to (not the drum sound). The bass sounds pretty cool on most of it. The guitars are sonically painful and the drums sound odd at best.

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Post by mcmurrich » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:30 pm

Quote:
give me lots of room. fuck myspace and computer speakers and mp3s and anything else that has contributed to the downfall of great records. if doesn't work in this age i know i'm doing something right.


Well there is a famous example of this....

Butch Vig, in spite of his brilliant production on Nevermind, supposedly got very roomy drum sounds that weren't working in the mixes.

Enter the whole Andy Wallace thing. Andy brought in samples and created a drum sound which so many bands strive to emulate. He also created a sound that basically made him so busy for the next 10 years that he was nearly impossible to get to.

Do you know what he costs to mix a song? More than most people's entire album budgets are.

I am sure you've carved out quite a niche for yourself, but unless you have people paying $8k for you to mix one track, then I'm sure there is a whole 'nuther sound that you could tap into that a whole lot of people want...

Anyways, because Andy Wallace did all that stuff, do you think it HURTS the artistic vision of Nevermind?

Cobain claimed that he didn't like the sound long after the fact, but Vig himself says that that was probably just a reaction to jocks and what not getting into the band.


Quote:
i don't get caught in the flavour of the month mode.


Roomy drums sound ARE the flavor of the month. Along with sloppy, garagy production.

A few years ago, by his own admission, no one would even consider hiring Tchad Blake to mix. Now look at him!

http://realworldstudios.com
sorry to open up this wound but i just got in from recording lots of room mics and wanted to see what was up.

more space echo took the words right out of my mouth.

i just wanted to add that i don't give a shit about how much anybody makes or untapped audiences/markets. the general population are just not that bright and i would feel very troubled if my aesthetic ever aligned with popular opinion.

i try to make records that sound good to myself and my clients. nuff said.
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Post by ??????? » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:41 pm

.
Last edited by ??????? on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ??????? » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:43 pm

dokushoka wrote:Those songs are all very much exceptions. I think we can pretty easily identify the drum sounds of the 70s as being very dry and dead (with the Bonham exception), the 80s ushered in loads of digital reverb and gated effects, the 90s were kind of the beginning of the "radar blip" drum sounds where the close mics were brought up more and samples were starting to be used. Then the indie craze began and it was all about getting room sounds.
So you think the "indie craze" started in the 2000s? Or did I misread this?
Last edited by ??????? on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:41 pm

So you think the "indie craze" started in the 2000s? Or did I misread this? Ho boy!
With the ascension of the internet in the (very) late 90s, early 2000s, independent labels began to thrive while majors began to experience rapidly decreasing sales. Thusly, the era of the "modern independent" label was born. I just referred to this as the "indie craze" as its not popular to listen to "independent" music and its very much a buzzword. In fact, some even catch shit for not listening to "indie" music cause its uncool to do otherwise...
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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:43 pm

i just wanted to add that i don't give a shit about how much anybody makes or untapped audiences/markets. the general population are just not that bright and i would feel very troubled if my aesthetic ever aligned with popular opinion.

i try to make records that sound good to myself and my clients. nuff said.
I totally respect your stance and I'm sure you're making great records. I just happen to have a lot of clients now a days that DO want to appeal to the general population and its my job (now) to help them achieve that goal.

I guess that makes me a bad guy on the intermaweb? (cue Brad347)
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Post by ??????? » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:15 pm

aw come on now, I was just drunk and funnin ya a lil bit.

Anyway, independent labels have been a big part of mainstream music at many points during history. Labels like Motown, Stax, Blue Note, Sub Pop, etc. were all indies without major label affiliations for much of the most important part of their relative existences. If anything it has gotten HARDER for independent labels to make any sort of real dent since radio and other media have become more consolidated.

But that's neither here nor there.

Remember around the late 1980s when there was this little bitty phenomenon called "College Radio," and non-major bands like Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, Dinosaur (jr), Husker Du, The Replacements, etc etc etc really achieved some crossover audiences so much that the majors stood up and took notice and started signing/buying/appropriating these bands and their respective independents in droves?

I mean, that happened way before the late 1990s. I'd say that was way more of an "indie craze" than whatever is supposedly going on right now/in the last 10 years. I mean Tortoise was cool and all that, but compared to Sonic Youth?

And while we're on that, much of that shit sounded pretty damned unconventional (I'm thinking of "You're Living Alll Over Me" in particular) but it sure as shit sold some records. Not that that's really extremely relevant to this particular conversation, just something that seems interesting to me right now.

P.S., working for a living and doing yr job doesn't make you a bad guy on the interweb. Offending others by invalidating them and their efforts (intentionally or not) does. :D

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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:38 pm

Offending others by invalidating them and their efforts (intentionally or not) does.
I think you are "reading into" or making far too many assumptions about what I am saying. I'd take my posts at face value. This is a discussion about the merits of using room mics in recorded music and how to make them work.
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Post by dokushoka » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:41 pm

Here are several examples of some drum tracks for a production demo I am working on.

ExFull.aif are the fully processed tracks.
ExNoDig.aif are all digital effects removed.
ExNoRoom.aif is the same with the room mic removed.
ExNoMult.aif is the same sans the kick/snare mult.
ExNoSamp.aif is the same with the snare samples removed.

http://monauralmusic.com/examples/

Discuss.
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Post by mjau » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:57 pm

brad347 wrote:And while we're on that, much of that shit sounded pretty damned unconventional (I'm thinking of "You're Living Alll Over Me" in particular) but it sure as shit sold some records.
Playing devil's advocate a little bit, but You're Living... is a great bunch of songs but a shit bunch of recording. I'd much prefer hearing that album done more conventionally.

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Post by ??????? » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:00 am

mjau wrote:
brad347 wrote:And while we're on that, much of that shit sounded pretty damned unconventional (I'm thinking of "You're Living Alll Over Me" in particular) but it sure as shit sold some records.
Playing devil's advocate a little bit, but You're Living... is a great bunch of songs but a shit bunch of recording. I'd much prefer hearing that album done more conventionally.
Since I have not made a record that has been as successful as that (commercially or otherwise), I chose the word "unconventional."

But my point was that, yes, the songs were awesome and that's what got over. So I think the thrust of it is that we agree. :)

Except that I don't want to hear it re-done. It is what it is and the unique sound of it is a part of the whole thing. I would probably not be too interested in hearing it with sample-replaced drums a la nevermind. It's exactly what it is, you know? It sounds like it was recorded on a four-track in a basement. Maybe it was.

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Post by mjau » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:09 am

Yeah, I think we agree that the songs carry that album well beyond its pure sonics.

But, um, comparing Tortoise to Sonic Youth? Get a hold of yourself, man! That's like comparing apples, to, well, snobbish uptight dissonant guitar wankers.

(I'm kidding, mostly. Experimental Jet Set... was a pretty profound album on me at the time. Thankfully I've matured into the erudite specimen the TOMBsters now enjoy).

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Post by dokushoka » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:11 am

Experimental Jet Set... was a pretty profound album on me at the time.
Same here. Its still my favorite SY record and actually just about the only one I regularly listen to. :wink:
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