Questions about building a studio/venue hybrid

Greensound · Post by **Greensound** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:12 pm

I recently just got hired into a new business as a recording engineer. The business model is essentially a venue that records and produces live shows as well as music productions. As the recording engineer, they are giving me free reign on setting the gear up - I must admit, my experience is limited to working with gear, not necessarily setting it up.

Here's what I'm working with: Yamaha MC 1202 mixing console, Peavey MS 1221 mixing console, Digidesign 003 Rack, a computer with pro-tools, and a variety of outboard gear.

I can't seem to find ANY information about these consoles - they look a bit old. Does anyone know anything about these consoles? How are the preamps?

This is the set-up I am considering so far :

Mic Inputs 1-8 -----> Yamaha MC 1202 ----(Direct Line outs)--> Digidesign Rack ----(1-8 analogue ouputs)----> Peavey MS 1221 ------->speakers

This will allow me to pick up a clean unaltered signal for later production, while giving me the opportunity to mix freely on the Peavey board for the live gig. I also plan on using a patchbay so that I can use the outboard gear and switch the speakers between live shows and production.

Now, the question

Should I be using the preamps of the Yamaha board as I described? Or should it be better to use the preamps of the Peavey board and use the Yamaha for live sound? Or should I use the 4 pre-amps of the digidesign rack in conjunction with one of the boards' preamps? OR should I consider getting outboard pre-amps?

Essentially, I need to know if anyone has used these boards before, and have any comments about the quality of their pre-amps. Also, any additional comments or suggestions in terms of how I should go about this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!

The Scum · Post by **The Scum** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:37 pm

A couple of places to begin:

You can get the manual for the Yamaha here:
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/index.php

I don't know much about the Peavey...

A couple things that you'll want to consider about the signal flow that you posted: you're running the live sound through the computer. Depending on how the computer gets set up, you may experience some latency (the sound coming out is a bit later than the sound going in). To make it work, you'll have to enable hardware monitoring for it.

Second, by putting the computer in the middle like that, you'll be making the live sound dependent on the recording...if the computer or interface has any sort of glitch, it'll come out the live sound rig. You'll also have to fire up the recording rig just to be able to run live sound.

The ideal way to set it up would be to make the 2 systems independent, so a glitch in one won't impact the other. The common way to do that is to split the microphones on their way to the consoles. One would be for recording, one would be for the live mix. The problem is that splitting like that isn't trivial, and the right way to do it is using splitter transformers, which tend to be pricy.

You might see if you can't tap the signals from one console's insert points, to run to the other console's line inputs. It's not pretty, but it keeps the two systems somewhat independent.

Greensound · Post by **Greensound** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:54 am

Thank you "The Scum" for your input.

I was planning on using the 1-8 analogue 1/4 inch outputs seen here.

I could be wrong, but I thought these outputs put out a signal directly from the inputs that hasn't gone through the Pro-Tools system yet. If this were the case, latency wouldn't be an issue.

Am I wrong?

Thanks again for your help.

thethingwiththestuff · Post by **thethingwiththestuff** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:09 pm

those are sends from the computer, not direct outs.

you definitely don't want the live sound going through a computer!! i would highly suggest finding a professional in your area to help you do this before you get fired for outputting the Windows Alarm sound during a performance or whatever....

what's your budget?

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:27 pm

I think the idea about using the insert points is the best from a budget standpoint. On most mixers you can plug a "mono" TS cable into the inserts to grab the preamplified signal pre eq/fader. On some you have to only partially insert the plug, on others you plug it in all the way.
The other thing you can do is loop the insert jacks thru a patchbay. from which you can take just the send but leave the return undisturbed. So the signal shows up at your computer and at the mix desk. there really isnt any reason to have two mixers for FOH and the DAW. You should be able to just set levels on the DAW. Use the second mixer for monitor duty. (as a performer and former sound guy this is one of the most badly done aspects of most venues)
Also someone else doing monitors frees you up to watch the meters on the DAW while also mixing FOH. Doing all 3 is hectic, I've done it before.

Ps. another hint. Have multiple headphones at the mix position so you can check stuff at the mixer and at the DAW. Great for troubleshooting in the heat of battle. Also, if what you are recording is really crucial have a backup medium like DAT or CDR recording the 2 mix.

Oh I forgot to mention, pretty much every Peavey mixer I have used is crap. Yamaha has some greats stuff, and some just good stuff. But Peavey for sound reinforcement I would only use some of their subs and the venerable CS800.

markitzero · Post by **markitzero** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:51 am

I wouldn't use PTLE for recording a live show. You ever recorded multiple tracks on LE for over an hour? Reliably? Probably not.

You need a console with direct outs and enough channels to satisfy the artists requirements. Use the direct outs to feed a dedicated hard disk recording unit like an HD24. Mix the live show on that console (no stage monitors? What is this, like an open mic/karaoke bar?) Dump the HD24 into the ProTools computer after the show.

Good luck.

Greensound · Post by **Greensound** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:17 pm

Like you guys suggested, I think I'm going to use the Yamaha's Pre-Fader/EQ insert points to get my Pro Tools signal - and use the Yamaha for live sound, and the Peavey for monitoring.

I was under the impression that I couldn't take take the insert point's signal without having to return it, however. So, if I use a mono TS cable - I can grab the signal without having to return it? And this won't disrupt the signal flow? I'll give it a shot.

I really appreciate all your guys help.

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:05 pm

the trick on grabbing the insert without interupting it is to only sitck the plug in until the first click. A long time ago in a project studio far away I went to a well stocked hardware store with a 1/4" plug and rummaged around to find some nylon washers that fit around the plug. This way I could be sure they would not inadvertently get pushed all the way in.
The other thing you can do that will cost about $130 is to get a send return snake. This has 4 or 8 TRS on one end broken out to individual sends and returns on the other end. Plug this into a patch bay with the cards setup half normalled. That way when you grab the top (the send) it does not interupt the bottom(return). It's also nice to have a simple patchbay in club situations.
The woofer is crapping out! Quick patch to the mains full range and bypass the crossover! Etc.

I have all my junk half normalled cuz it makes it easy to mult things to different paths. PArallel compression/EQ/reverb etc.

syrupcore · Post by **syrupcore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:13 pm

Splitting before the mixers is best. second best: will they buy you a new mixer? Something with direct outs and inserts.

The problem with using the insert-as-direct-out in a live scenario comes in when you want to actually use an insert to compress/effect something. not at all uncommon.

It'll totally work if you're bootstrapping it but it's far from ideal. even with the new mixer with both, any compression you have on a channel to make it work in the room is what you're going to get recorded. Not always what you want.

If they really want to sell this as a service and not turn you into a mad man, push to get a splitter. Whirlwind and companies sell them for <1k.

also... I dunno what sorta bands you'll have coming through but 12 channels run out real quick! particularly if you wanna have a stereo pair of room mics for the recording.

Greensound · Post by **Greensound** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:26 pm

Hmmm, good point. I would feel much better trusting a splitter than trusting the inserts of any old-school console with half plugged TRS cables to feed me my recording signal. Also, if I get a splitter, I can use the inserts to feed the Peavey console a signal for the stage monitors (I wish I had direct outs). However, the digidesign rack only has 4 preamps - and I doubt they are very good.

They seem pretty cool with funding things that are necessary - but it's a new business, so we are trying to squeeze pennies any way we can. I think I can convince them to buy a splitter - but then I'll need preamps.....might as well get a new board!

I really like the idea of using a send/return snake and using that with a patch bay - I need to get a patch bay anyway for all of the outboard gear (and for those "the woofer is crapping out" moments). Problem with that though, is that I will be using up all of the inserts of the Yamaha board, which means I have to find another way to feed the signal to the Peavey console for monitoring. Perhaps this is where a splitter will come in handy.

Also, as stated earlier, 12 inputs isn't a lot....... 8 inputs (which is all the digidesign rack can take) is fewer - but for recording a live show it's good enough for the time being. Bigger productions outside of live shows will involve multi tracking and multiple takes, so I can manage.

Looks like I'm starting to get a better sense of the options I have to work with. You guys have been insanely helpful - and better yet, no one has been smug or talked down to me for not knowing some of this stuff (as I should). I'm convinced Tape Op members kick ass - Thanks.

If anyone else has any other ideas or input - I'd love to hear it!

syrupcore · Post by **syrupcore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:41 pm

here's some good info on splitters - http://www.whirlwindusa.com/tech06split.html

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:27 pm

another thought just occured to me.
I am not familiar with the buss layout of the 2 mixers, but you may want to submix the drums to one submaster pair to conserve your DAW inputs. when only 8 tracks are available this is usually the way to go. 2 tracks for most of teh drums, then maybe one track of kick/snare combined. Leaving you 5-6 tracks for the rest.

solo-bration · Post by **solo-bration** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:30 am

A: split snake

VelvetoneStudios · Post by **VelvetoneStudios** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:05 am

I've been doing stuff like that forrever in clubs with limited budgets, and it's not an easy thing if there are other engineers coming in and touching your setup. I finally broke down and invested in a really nice (transformer isolated) split snake, but that's probably not in your budget. A cost effective way is to try to get the venue to spring for a mixer along the lines of an Allen & Heath Mixwizard. This has 16 channels with pre's, direct outs that come pre fader and insert points as well. Big bonus is the 6 aux sends so you can use this one mixer for your Front Of House, monitors, and the front end for your Digi. Other cheaper options are Rolls and Behringer brand rackmount mic splitters and a cheap multi-pre with ADAT lightpipe out. If you split your mics out to the 4 pre's on the digi and lightpipe in 8 more pre's you've got 12 channels and pre's and you can use any extra aux sends to send signal to the line in's on your Digi as well. The point has been made already, but you really can't have the 003 in between because LE does not allow you to send out unless you take off the "Low Latency" mode. There are so many inexpensive options nowadays that can get you up and running, even though the sound quality may not be top drawer. Nady Behringer Rolls etc have lots of solutions for under $100.00
One other point: when we're touring and want to get a halfway O.K. recording without having the time or means to really set up, we use a nice pair of mics to get the club sound and take a stereo feed off of the board mix to blend in in P.T. to get a more focused sound.
Good luck, and dont frown on the cheap stuff to get the ball rolling. It may not be Neve, but you'll get the signal into P.T. and what more can you ask for on a shoestring budget.

musicjunky · Post by **musicjunky** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:36 am

markitzero wrote:I wouldn't use PTLE for recording a live show. You ever recorded multiple tracks on LE for over an hour? Reliably? Probably not.

I do mobile recording and record all the time with Pro Tools LE usually between 60 and 90 minutes all the time, never had a problem. Just make sure that your screensaver and sleep options are set to off, or if you are on a mac, use the freeware program Caffeine to do this for you.

also, make sure your open ended record allocation is set longer than the time you plan on recording. I just set mine to 2 hours, because it's easier on the computer than selecting all available space

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Questions about building a studio/venue hybrid

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