Pro Tools aversion

[Fieryjack]

I have been avoiding the Pro Tools platform for years--mainly due to what I consider to be excessive pricing, version chasing, monopolistic advantages, etc. etc.

I have not been successful in finding a 100% workable alternative. I am a Logic user, but have found that Logic can be clumsy and fiddly when it comes to tracking.

My ideal scenario is to have dedicated tracking and mix systems--I don't necessarily agree that one should track/mix on the same platform/hardware/medium (do you?)

I have been considering the following:

- Apogee Ensemble + Logic
- Alesis HD 24 (for tracking- or similar reliable box), Logic for mixing
- Pro Tools for everything

Opinions/positives/drawbacks of each scenario? I am not interested in Pro Tools LE....

[Jeff White]

I've been using Digital Performer for years and it's always been rock solid on both of my Macs. The HD24 is quite nice, but go with the version with the 96K i/o. I use to own an HD24 and it was also rock solid. I just wanted to work entirely in Digital Performer.

Jeff

[A-Barr]

Never had a problem with DP in the past 4 years either, definitely a program worth considering.

I couldn't even get an mbox to work on my then-girlfriend's ibook on 10.4 or my G4 tower running OSX 10.3, nothing I did worked, some piece of software was inevitably the wrong version for something else. I was just borrowing it to do some work work at home, but if I was an end-user who paid for it, I would have been pretty irritated. I tried using my co-worker's mbox and it needed a mail-in software update right out of the box! Yeesh.

Maybe it's just me, I know other folks who have used pt for years with no problems.

[joel hamilton]

I have been avoiding the Pro Tools platform for years--mainly due to what I consider to be excessive pricing, version chasing, monopolistic advantages, etc. etc.

I have not been successful in finding a 100% workable alternative. I am a Logic user, but have found that Logic can be clumsy and fiddly when it comes to tracking.

My ideal scenario is to have dedicated tracking and mix systems--I don't necessarily agree that one should track/mix on the same platform/hardware/medium (do you?)

I have been considering the following:

- Apogee Ensemble + Logic
- Alesis HD 24 (for tracking- or similar reliable box), Logic for mixing
- Pro Tools for everything

Opinions/positives/drawbacks of each scenario? I am not interested in Pro Tools LE....

I love protools, because it works for me. I cant tell you it will work for you, but I know I like it and I know I like the way it sounds (blasphemy, I know) because of the way I use it. Protools does a lot of nifty things that would take me ages on my tape machine, and some things that simply dont exist in the analog world (look ahead gates come to mind).

Do you mix projects people have recorded? do you track stuff other people are going to mix? are you a commercial facility?

Aside from just hating digidesign's corporate behaviour, which I dont know anyone that would actually say "I think it is COOL that they update every 5 minutes and it costs money..."... aside from that, have you ever used a well setup HD rig? it works. It works really well.
I know a ton of people that get great results on things other than protools, and I know a bunch of people that get great results with protools.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I love protools, because it works for me.

+1. I held of for years but I love it now. If you're projects travel between studios Protools is a must.
It's like the SM57 or NS10 of recording platforms. It's not the best but it's the standard.

[Fieryjack]

Joel, maybe you can give me a little more insight...

I am an aspiring commercial facility (i.e. have a professionally designed room, enough experience to get it off the ground) with no 100% commitment to a recording medium (have worked in Logic which as I've said is great but has fiddly limitations). Part of my problem is choosing which road I want to go down. Breaking ground this autumn.

Here are some questions that if answered might help me:

1) Do boxes like the HD 24/ Tascam, etc. 'force' you to use their converters? Can you opt for other conversion going in? I can't see how once converted, that one HD can sound different than another once 'in the box'.....what advantages (or disadvantages) does PT offer during the tracking phase? People track to 2" reels with no complaints and it's very much the same principle as these HD 24 type devices--except digital (speaking strictly methodology here--not sonics).

2) What is the bare minimum investment required to get a HD3 rig that is fitted with enough plug ins, etc. to make it attractive to clients? Do clients really expect PT in a commercial place? Does a box as above introduce other limitations?

Trying to sort out my way here--if I go the PT route, it's a big $ commitment and I want to make sure I'm right.

Thanks again

[dokushoka]

Man, Joel said it really well and I am 100% in agreement with his views! I'll try to answer this though...

2) What is the bare minimum investment required to get a HD3 rig that is fitted with enough plug ins, etc. to make it attractive to clients? Do clients really expect PT in a commercial place? Does a box as above introduce other limitations?

If you are getting into protools, I would shop around for used systems. You can easily get a used hd3 rig for what an hd1 rig would cost new. There are tons of guys getting out that need to unload and there are deals aplenty.

If you are working at 44.1khz or 48khz, I would say, for most people, an HD2 rig is plenty to start out with. I would also not spend crazy money on higher end interfaces. Even the 96IO sounds fine especially if you augment it with a separate clock. If you wait around, you can find a 96io for around $1000 - $1100 which will save you tons of money in the long run.

I have noticed HUGE variances on prices for used HD system so don't buy the first one you see!!

Lastly, I think if you are trying to run an open door shop, HD is honestly one of the best "investments" (I don't really consider any gear an investment, expense, maybe...) that you can make.

[lionaudio]

the main thing, is that if you are wanting to be able to work on projects that were started at other studios, you will be better off with pro-tools.. i like using a mixer, and don't have the cash for an hd system, and i use the HD24. i love it.. it's great.. but i do lose clients from time to time because not many people use it, and it is honestly a bitch dumping files in or out of it.. editing is also much much easier ITB. I will eventually move up to either pro-tools or Logic. Life would be much easier for me if the Alesis was the industry standard, but alas.. it is not

[fremitus]

We finally made the leap to Pro Tools this year after a long spell without it. I can say hat I am TOTALLY happy about it. I bitched about the same things as anyone in the past and they are valid to a point, but our business has increased substantially because of the HD rig and I absolutely love working on the system. We went for Lynx converters instead of the cack-ass 192's and all, making for a better sounding, much more affordable and full featured system. There's a guy on eBay that I bought the HD cards from, his name is Doug, I'm not sure how he sells them for the price he does and doesn't have Digi breathing down his neck trying to hobble him, but if you'd like I'd be more than happy to pass on his ID in an PM.

Bottom Line? It's not THAT expensive compared to anything remotely comparable. And being able to say that our studio has Pro Tools HD has done nothing but bring business. Every once in a while I get a potential client that asks what we are running and says things like 'slow tools' or whatever, but these are people that have either had a bad time with an old Digi 001 or people that just don't know anything about it and think that the 2" will tune the bass for them (it won't).

Anyway. HD, we went with HD2 and two Lynx Aurora 16's for a full on 32 i/o of good times. HD3? really? how many tracks do you generally use simultaneously? Even with the jazz we do with larger ensembles it's almost always under 24. how many channels could you possibly return in your studio anyway? just say HD and you're in good shape. save a couple bux and spend it on some plugs.

that's my opinion anyway. but a good investment? yep. HD is, if you're trying to run a business anyway. we all want to make art and great music, and thats still the most important part, but i want to eat organic vegetables and drink good wine once in a while. and damned if a little HD isn't helping me with that a bit.

[calaverasgrandes]

I use Sonar and am happy with it. But thats all the way over here in PC land. I'd go Pro Tools if I could afford it, if it offered more stability.
i have no gigantic problems with stability right now so I am not willing to pay a lot to get into a closed system. That and the plugs cost more.

[i am monster face]

It's only as stable as the machine it's on.

[PBenz]

I, too, have avoided ProTools for the same reasons you state in the post that started this thread. And I, too, am a Logic user who became frustrated with it's tracking abilities. In fact, I got so fed up with having to wait for Logic to draw waveforms, even when I wanted to simply undo my take, that I briefly went back to Cubase which handles waveform generation much more efficiently. (I say briefly, because I returned to Logic after mixing 1 song in Cubase).

You mentioned that you were considering Apogee Ensemble + Logic. Have you considered Apogee's Symphony's system? I've been drooling over this for some time now, but I'm basically waiting to see what Apple does with Logic 8 before pulling the trigger. There are some interesting reviews on this on the Apogee site, include one from TapeOp's Andy Hong, who apparently sold his HD rig for Symphony.

The business arguments for HD are all valid, IMO. I do have 1 friend in the NY/NJ area that has been making a living from his Logic-only studio for many years, but I do not know off-hand if he has lost any business due to lack of PT.

Best of luck with your decision. It's not an easy one.

[joel hamilton]

The business arguments for HD are all valid, IMO. I do have 1 friend in the NY/NJ area that has been making a living from his Logic-only studio for many years, but I do not know off-hand if he has lost any business due to lack of PT.

You will never know if you lose business because of NOT having protools. People look at the wensite, if you dont have it , they dont call. You will start to think everyone that IS calling LOVES your choice of logic, cubase, etc,etc... because everyone knows you offer it after while.. does wal mart know how many people are not buying 57's at their stores?

I have said it this way before....

You can build yourself a beautiful island, where everything serves you beautifully... but it is hard for a client to get over to your island, and it is hard for you to get over to the mainland....

There are always 10 million different workaraounds referenced by those that have other systems, but they are workarounds nonetheless. if you built a 3" 24 track tape machine with amazing electronics, it would undoubtedly sound "better" than the 2" machines all around you. You wouldnt be able to play other peoples 2" tapes, and they couldnt play your 3" tapes. standards exist for a reason... there is probably a more efficient termination than XLR for microphones, but that was standardized long ago... again, workarounds (adaptors) exist, but the standard makes things more elegant, and simpler.

I dont have stability problems, as said above: PT is as good as the machine it is running on. skimp on the hardware, and the software feels limited. That is true of any software.

[PBenz]

All excellent points, Joel.

Great - now you've got me thinking about HD again. Thanks a lot.

The hardware aspect of PT HD continues to bug me, though. If i had one of those eight-core Mac Pros, spending several thousand bucks on a DSP card just doesn't seem right from a purely technical perspective. It seems that as computers get more and more powerful, the need for these cards becomes less and less.

I totally get the business aspect, though, and I think I understand the reasons why PT has become the industry standard.

[JohnDavisNYC]

Joel and I have talked a ton about this privately, when I was opening The Bunker, and I decided to NOT get Pro Tools.... I did this for a few reasons.

1) I like Logic better... not really about the professional/business aspects of it, but I really prefer to do editing in Logic, and the softsynths are the best around, and there are some great plugins.

2) I have a 2" machine and a Radar, and we tend to do ALOT of tracking basics for albums to be mixed in a PT room later, but since most albums either start here and then go off to somewhere else for overdubs and mixing, or do albums that stay in house the whole time, compatibility hasn't been an issue. If you want to be able to have someone bring in a PT session and do 6 hours of overdubs, and then leave, you need PT, but I really don't like those types of sessions, anyway.

3) With Logic I am equally compatible with every platform, as I know less and less musicians bothering with the PT name, so just being able to get files into and out of whatever format people like to use is important to me.... Logic is hands down the most efficient software in terms of exporting zero-bounced files... it is a one click menu option to export all tracks as audiofiles... they are all named and everything. Importing and spotting files into PT is a pain, too, since you can't snap every region to the time stamp at once, Logic, again, select everything, and if they are .BWF, selelct 'return regios to original record position...' and all the files go exactly where they are supposed to be, from any DAW.

I dunno... I feel like at this point, it is less and less of a big deal. Even between PT rigs, there are problems with plugins, software versions, i/o routing, etc... most mix engineers just want zero bounced files anyway, right? I may have lost a few people from looking at the website, but I am busy enough and booked far enough ahead, that I haven't felt the sting, even if that is the case...

So, yeah, if you feel like you need a super solid, simple, name brand, extremely expensive computer based platform, get HD. It will kick ass. It may not be my favourite DAW, but I have used it since version 3, and it works... most of the time... but all computer stuff is like that.

If you want to get something better for tracking, get a used Radar. Less that half what it would have cost me to get into the HD game, and I have much better converters, a platfom that doesn't crash, and a work method that is much more like working on a tape machine.

I like it on my island, and while it might not be quite as easy to sneak away for short visits, our tourism board is really busy trying to book all the serious vacationers.

John