Yet another job that pays more than engineering....

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pandemic
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Post by pandemic » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:59 am

My most recent half-time "job" as a postgraduate psychotherapy intern (with a master's degree) paid $300 (not $3,000) per month . . . before deductions. Psyc interns need licensing hours, so the market treats us however it pleases.
Can't you make three hundred bucks a month selling blood?.........
Preferably not your own?

soma
Good Luck At Any Cost

kayagum
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Post by kayagum » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:39 am

Tatertot wrote:I think it has to do with kids being so busy with sports and other resume-padding busynesses because they feel so much pressure to be studious and get into good colleges. That's what the WSJ thought.
My theory is that since Mommy and Daddy are taking care of everything financially (think Helicopter Parents), the kids have no incentive to get a job. I mean, if the parents paid for everything, including video games and cable, why bother? And then, the parents wonder why their mid 20 something children boomerang back home. "Saving for a down payment on a house" - yeah, right.

I'm guessing a lot of people on this board had the initiative to buy their own gear, or at least stick their necks out and max out a credit card or three. I don't know about you, but my jobs were all about making enough money on my own so I can pursue my interests without sponging off anyone else. Unfortunately, not everyone operates this way.

I would even argue, though, that on some level the artistic work gets stronger when it's your balance sheet on the line. It has to- if it's not, you're done.
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't." ~ Erica Jong

"No one wants advice ? only corroboration." ~ John Steinbeck

JASIII
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Post by JASIII » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:19 pm

Man, I know this is a generalization, but kids these days are fucked. They have no concept of anything. No responsibility, no work ethic, no motivation, nuthin'. I have this discussion all the time with my roomate who manages at a grocery store and has to manage high school kids and young adults and he's in shock at how poorly prepared they are for everything, because their generation were little kids back in the booming 90's, mommy and daddy made a big jump in pay compared to earlier generations and these kids are so coddled and isolated from reality it's sick. I'm a gen-x'er (I hate to use that label, but it's a standard we all know), and WE got a bad rap for being indifferent and slackers, but today's kids make us look like freakin' driven by comparison.
"If you will starve unless you become a rock star, then you have bigger problems than whether or not you are a rock star. " - Steve Albini

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dokushoka
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Post by dokushoka » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:12 pm

I hate to be negative, but you have to look at things in context.

The reality is when it comes to recording, its just not that hard really. What I mean is with some basic education and a little bit of first hand experience, just about anyone can do a decent job of capturing sounds. I see this all the time. I have a lot of friends who do home recording and I just give them quick tips and within no time, they are getting solid tracks. As long as you have passable gear (which is trivial to get now a days) and follow some "basic" guidelines, you can do just fine.

Why would people pay more than $35/hr for that? Its not a scarce skill really.

The other day my production partner was in line at the Japanese market holding a book she is reading on digital audio and the security guard starts talking to her about it and tells her "yeah I'm an engineer." EVERYONE is an "engineer" now!

If you want to pull in higher hourly rates, you have to specialize. I have pretty much stopped doing freelance tracking gigs because after the room is paid for, I just can't make that much. However, I do pretty well doing production, mixing and artist development gigs. The reason is that the clients see those tasks as being higher in value and the people that do those roles are far more scarce than people who just do tracking and basic mixing.

Its the same as in any profession. My girlfriend is an extremely skilled programmer and all the time she is telling me about how there are teams of people from other countries who do very basic programming for $15/hr or lower. She makes $65/hr as a freelancer because she does things that the $15/hr guys can't do!

If you want more, you have to bust your ass to get it, and despite what people say, the jobs ARE out there.
Let me mix your music!
http://www.sfrecording.com

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doyoucompute
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Post by doyoucompute » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:26 pm

You wouldn't believe what I do for 7.28 an hour working in a group home with 8 mentally disabled adults. And you probably would make around 9.00 an hour here working at an AT&T wireless. On the other hand, you can find a decent to nice apartment for 375 a month.

percussion boy
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Post by percussion boy » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:03 am

pandemic wrote:
My most recent half-time "job" as a postgraduate psychotherapy intern (with a master's degree) paid $300 (not $3,000) per month . . . before deductions. Psyc interns need licensing hours, so the market treats us however it pleases.
Can't you make three hundred bucks a month selling blood?.........
Preferably not your own?

soma
Draining the blood of passersby and selling it is frowned upon in California psychological circles, probably the only practice that is.

I could just go straight to vampirism, and live in a cave somewhere. Good room ambience too.

But we digress . . .
"The world don't need no more songs." - Bob Dylan

"Why does the Creator send me such knuckleheads?" - Sun Ra
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KyleHale
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Post by KyleHale » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:58 am

dokushoka wrote: The reality is when it comes to recording, its just not that hard really. What I mean is with some basic education and a little bit of first hand experience, just about anyone can do a decent job of capturing sounds. I see this all the time. I have a lot of friends who do home recording and I just give them quick tips and within no time, they are getting solid tracks.
I agree with you in some regards Dokushoka, mixing really isn't that hard of a skill to have. Obviously how specialized in what you do really matters. I think a lot of people that are successful not only bust their tail as an engineer getting the best mix, but it's client relationships. It is certainly a healthy combination of the two: solid mix and client relationships. This is any business. You can be selling the crappiest item you can possibly sell, but if you are overly friendy, offering good customer support, you will have clients to a degree(obviously having having a good product makes this process much easier). I'm learning more and more daily that people come to me not just because my mixes are good, but b/c clients told other people how much of a pleasure I was to work with.

rollmottle
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Post by rollmottle » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:52 am

KyleHale wrote:
I agree with you in some regards Dokushoka, mixing really isn't that hard of a skill to have. Obviously how specialized in what you do really matters. I think a lot of people that are successful not only bust their tail as an engineer getting the best mix, but it's client relationships. It is certainly a healthy combination of the two: solid mix and client relationships. This is any business. You can be selling the crappiest item you can possibly sell, but if you are overly friendy, offering good customer support, you will have clients to a degree(obviously having having a good product makes this process much easier). I'm learning more and more daily that people come to me not just because my mixes are good, but b/c clients told other people how much of a pleasure I was to work with.
mixing really isn't that hard of a skill to have???? tell that to all the people who make a living on their mixing skills alone.

are you using Mixing and Engineering interchangeably? not only are they completely different disciplines, but by no means are either of them "that hard of a skill to have." "engineering" may be more ACCESSIBLE to people, but doing it well, like any skill, is no easy task. mixing OTOH is an entirely different ball game and i would say is the most difficult (and crucial) aspect of the process to truly master. being a great mixer IS a specialized skill. that's why tons of bands send their recordings to people known for great mixes.

KyleHale
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Post by KyleHale » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:56 am

mixing compared to C++ programming, economics, bio-engineering, chemistry? Aren't a mixing engineer and a nuclear engineer two incredibly different fields with two incredibly different skill levels/knowledge? There's a huge difference... mixing is not that hard compared to many other tasks in this world, that's why people take it in their own hands to do it sometimes. It is an artform, so you will probably get more credit as a good mixer if you do a good job in the eyes of others(or at least convince people that your mix is incredible). The mixing engineer is just as much an artist as the performer is, they just get the fancy name of engineer to make themselves feel more dignified. People may not be incredible at it, but I've seen mastery in mixing within a matter of 3-5 years and other skill sets taking much longer. This is excluding "engineering: pluging in patches and getting a session running" Any person that is able bodied can do that. I take pride in my work and strive to be the best in what I do, so I'm not saying this to hurt anyone's ego. Sorry to sound so harsh, it's just my personal opinion.

*awaiting the many yells I am about to get from other tape opers...

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micyourbrain
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Post by micyourbrain » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:22 pm

Building your own project studio... $10-15K

Making $15/hr doing something you enjoy and being your own boss... priceless

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dokushoka
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Post by dokushoka » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:07 pm

KyleHale wrote:mixing compared to C++ programming, economics, bio-engineering, chemistry? Aren't a mixing engineer and a nuclear engineer two incredibly different fields with two incredibly different skill levels/knowledge? There's a huge difference... mixing is not that hard compared to many other tasks in this world, that's why people take it in their own hands to do it sometimes. It is an artform, so you will probably get more credit as a good mixer if you do a good job in the eyes of others(or at least convince people that your mix is incredible). The mixing engineer is just as much an artist as the performer is, they just get the fancy name of engineer to make themselves feel more dignified. People may not be incredible at it, but I've seen mastery in mixing within a matter of 3-5 years and other skill sets taking much longer. This is excluding "engineering: pluging in patches and getting a session running" Any person that is able bodied can do that. I take pride in my work and strive to be the best in what I do, so I'm not saying this to hurt anyone's ego. Sorry to sound so harsh, it's just my personal opinion.

*awaiting the many yells I am about to get from other tape opers...
I make a living mixing, and I can tell you that my hourly rate is higher than many programmers and I am by no means a "name" mixer (I'm only 27 years old). My hourly typically falls between $35 - $65 which is by no means bad. I know guys who are like me, mostly doing small label releases, but have more credits and they are earning closer to $100/hr. Once you get into mixing for commercial releases, it gets VERY demanding and I WISH I could "convince" my clients that a mix was great just by talking to them...

...and that's the whole thing really. A good mixer makes a mix that convinces people that its good by just having them hear it. No explanation necessary.

Also, I don't really feel like much of what I do is creative. The artist has already done that part, my job is to just clean it up and make it work on a variety of systems as well as smoothing out the performance, etc. It IS very much a technical discipline and the amount of "problem solving" skills required to do it are many. It really takes 5 years just to find out if you've got any potentional...

Ask around about rates. There are guys that really aren't that big that are making $1500 a day even on indie projects. The big boys are charging around $8k per song...
Let me mix your music!
http://www.sfrecording.com

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