living in a commercial space....

medula · Post by **medula** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:49 pm

So finally after about a year of looking around for a commercial space to set up my studio, i finally find something. It's a nice big room, with 11 ft. high ceilings and it's super spacious. I can customize it too if i want, so i can build walls, drum booth, whatever.

Here's my question: I don't want to rent a separate apartment to sleep in. I can't afford to rent this space if i am simultaneously renting a living space. The commercial space is advertised as "24/7" access, and in the lease agreement there is nothing that excludes residential use. The spaces are advertised as artist spaces, and i'm wondering if maybe the landlord can't legally advertise the spaces as live-in, but sort of turns a blind-eye to it.

Does anyone have any experience with this, or have any input?

i don't want to get in any trouble, but this scenario would be very cost effective for me.

thanks.

RefD · Post by **RefD** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:33 am

it may depend on your city's zoning laws.

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:22 am

it depends on how much you care about laws. generally, commercial spaces won't have nice things like showers or stoves.... so you may not be able to live too comfortably there.... but if you don't care and want to go all renegade and sleep on the control room couch, DO IT!

john

(who lived illegally in a commercial space for 4 years before moving out and finally converting it toa real studio)

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:23 am

Lot's of cities will allow for an infrequent living space in a comercial building, ie: a cot or pull out that get used sometimes but is not your main address. Before the zoning laws changed here in Toronto lots of people would live in their studios but take pains to make it appear that they didn't live there full time.

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:46 am

If there are already 'artists' in that building go by there in the evening and ask some people who are there already

medula · Post by **medula** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:17 pm

thanks for the input. I was already leaning towards doing it, i just wanted to know that their are others who have done the same thing. I think it's definately a good idea to get acquainted with people in the building, and see what the mode of operation is around there.

I was looking on TENANT.NET for some info about this kind of stuff. This is a resource for NYC's rental tenants. Apparently there is actually a huge problem with people taking over commercial spaces for residential use in NYC. I guess the high rent costs are forcing people to do what the can to live. but there are all kinds of posts about this. I live in seattle and this isn't happening....yet. I read an article about a bunch or artists taking a huge warehouse and building grass tiki huts for separate rooms. They created this whole hawaiian village for them and their freinds. crazy stuff.

kayagum · Post by **kayagum** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:43 pm

Ask yourself if you got busted, could you move out in 30 days or less? Either way, there's your answer.

Tragabigzanda · Post by **Tragabigzanda** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 am

I agree with Kayagum. Hope for the best, but make sure you've set aside enough $$ if you get booted...

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:53 am

it'd also be a good idea to check with the people already in the building and see how they feel about having a studio for a neighbor. depending on how close the rooms are/ what the walls are made of, people are likely not gonna be real psyched about having rock bands tracking next door...

also take a look at the neighborhood...if it's obviously in the midst of gentrification, be wary...that commercial building is likely to get sold and turned into yuppie lofts in the near future...seems to be the way of the world...

signorMars · Post by **signorMars** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:54 pm

yeah... getting kicked out of a space or having an illegal studio shut down has a hell of a lot more to do with your neighbors than with zoning laws.

Post by **TapeOpLarry** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:05 am

I doubt it's legal - usually isn't. If the landlord's that lenient what happens when a water main breaks over your console? There's some good advice above, the best may be to make sure other tenants won't want to kill you on the first downbeat.

ballpein · Post by **ballpein** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:06 am

used to see this a lot in Vancouver... I think in some cases it's technically legal, but cops / bylaw officers seem to like shutting these down. oh, and fire inspectors too. Cops may tend to assume that something illegal is going on when people live in a commercial space, and you could become a regular stop on their beat.

If / when the neighbours start complaining about noise or whatnot, living illegally in the space gives the landlord a very convenient excuse to terminate the lease.

japmn · Post by **japmn** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:03 am

Doing this in Chicago is almost impossible. You have to find a space that has previously been used in this manner (before the newer zoning codes) and is sort of grandfathered in. Good luck finding that and good luck affording it. I need to move to a new city that lets me do what ever I want.

Bedfordstop · Post by **Bedfordstop** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:01 am

If / when the neighbours start complaining about noise or whatnot, living illegally in the space gives the landlord a very convenient excuse to terminate the lease.[/quote]

this is a great point - if you are going to do it, you have to take great pains not to alienate any of the people who might want to see you get bounced - If you might be disturbing people, just talking to neighbors and exchanging contact info is a great way to start off - if you give them a line to call you on, its more likely they will take that route instead of calling the police.

I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, but i can share my experience. I chose to get a commercial space in Brooklyn in 2003, signed a 5 years lease and spent about 6 months and a good chunk of money building my studio and living space. It was a 3 story building in the industrial section of Greenpoint - people had been living there since the 1980's, and the owner had no problem with it. We signed a commercial lease that said "no living" but it was all very wink wink nudge nudge.

There were definitely noise issues with the people downstairs, (once i went to a party downstairs, and i saw a hole in the ceiling where they had been banging with a broomstick!) But as we were ALL living illegally, and i never complained that they hijacked the freight elevator as their own motorcycle garage, it never really affected us. However, in 2005 the city of New York rezoned the whole neighborhood. For whatever reason, though most of the neighborhood flipped to residential or mixed zoning, our building remained manufacturing. The mayor then organized a task force to go out and aggressively evict all tenants that were still living illegally. The reasoning behind this was that since 80% of the buildings had flipped to residential, they want to be certain that the remaining 20% of the manufacturing buildings were being used appropriately. So many jobs had fled the district already that they had to preserve those that remained.

The department of buildings went around looking for evidence of illegal residence - drapes and curtains to be specific. They rang the buzzer and the 2nd floor people let them in. (***Note to all illegals - do not let the building department into your building! Bad Idea! You don't have to let anyone in but the fire department and the police, and i am pretty sure they need a warrant.***)

The building department entered one apartment and wrote up 4 citations totally $10,000 for the owner of the building. Specifically, they were cited for having a 3 fixture bathroom (toilet, sink, and shower) in a manufacturing space which, as i understand it, is technically a residential bathroom. Also all of the alterations and plumbing were done without ever being filed for, which is illegal. Further inspections were scheduled. So, 3 years into my 5 year lease, i got the boot.

Eventually, the owner of the building got two of the citations dismissed so he was left with a $5000 fine. Nobody in the building really fought the eviction, although we probably could have. He gave us several months notice, and it didn't turn into one of those nightmarish owner vs tenant debacles.

Do i regret it? Absolutely not. Did i have chipmunk sized roaches? Yeah. Did i wake up every morning at 7am when the sheet metal fabricators across the street began sawing through metal? Yeah. But in rent alone, i probably saved close to 20 grand over that period. Also my apt was 3 times the size of any of my friends places. And i was able to salvage much of the building materials for my next studio that i built last year.

Also in New York, you can go to www.nyc.gov and go the building department website, type in the address of any building in the city, and see the history of any work filing or DOB citations for the building. It may be the same in Seattle.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:13 pm

too bad you got the boot, but at least the landlord wasn't a jerk about it.

those roaches you mention....i know them well. i swear they must be eating the mice, i dunno how else they'd get so big...

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