Van Halen Clocking Error Live!

[;ivlunsdystf]

eddie is a pretty decent player :shock: and knows alot about theory.
If his guitar were a half step out, wouldnt he be able to transpose on the fly?

Maybe he's also deaf as a post. Like later Art Blakey and that Beethoven dude.

I still believe the lone out of tune guitar theory. It passes the Occam's Razor test better than the weird clocking error theory. I think the clocking error theory is more seductive because it requires more obscure knowledge to understand/explain, but that's about all it has in its favor.

EDIT: The clocking error theory is also more appealing to musical types because it involves an error backstage, not on the part of the infallible EVH.

[tonic889]

I think the follow up (particularly the you tube video at the bottom) nips the guitar-out-of-tune theory in the bud, doesn't it?

Why didn't they just hire a friggin keyboard player?

[;ivlunsdystf]

Oh.

[;ivlunsdystf]

Does EVH use one of those whammy pitch bender pedals?

[chovie d]

Im convinced (tho im no expert, just some ignorant schmo)this is guitar out of tune not keyboards after watching a couple clips from other nights (frankly he sounds a bit out of tune on some of the other nights as well..whats with that first note he hits and lets ring forever?horrible! that never sounds in tune on any night).

-defective tuner?
-pitch shift pedal engaged?
-broken spring on trem?
-slipped screw on trem spring holder?
-drunken guitar tech?

something to make the guitar a semitone out but still in tune with itself i guess. keybaords same pitch every night

[jv]

I googled it and most other sites support the clocking error theory. Although I do find it interesting that the bass seems to be in tune... I'm confused. And i actually had to look away. They muscled through it though.

Once my zipper busted open on stage as I was bent back singing. It felt drafty. And I feared the worst. But a lump of man shorts was all you could see. The boiler room in Bakersfield was lucky that day. A discarded strip of duct tape sticking to the floor was enough for a quick patch job to finish the set.

DLR would have just let it fly.

[Jeff White]

[jeddypoo]

You're almost right: Van Halen used to tune down a half step to accomodate Dave's limited vocal range; after he quit they made a big deal out of saying they no longer had to do that with Sammy. Dozens of guitar magazine interviews from the period back this up. I remember Eddie saying it was nice to "not play rubberbands anymore."


As I said in the other thread, if they played a 44.1 file at 48 as the blogger claims, the pitch would go up but so would the tempo. "Jump" is at 129/130 bpm on the album, so it stands to reason the song would be performed live at that tempo as well. Playing back the studio recording at 48 pops the tempo up to around 140ish. But the "clocking error" live clip is at 130. So either Van Halen intended to perform "Jump" at a much slower tempo on this tour than they did on the record, which makes no sense, or the problem is not the result of incorrect sampling rates.

My theory is that Van Halen continue to perform their back catalog pre-1984 tuned down a half step, or even a full step, or some interval they establish by ear, and that for the songs that need to be accompanied by a keyboard (in this case, "And the Cradle Will Rock" and "Jump," both of which are in their current setlist) Eddie and Wolfie are handed guitars tuned to concert pitch. And in this instance, Eddie was handed the wrong guitar (especially as the bass is not discernably out of tune in the clip).

Not to bring Occam's razor into this, but given the technology questions (how would a file come to be played back at the wrong sampling rate in a touring rig anyway? Are they playing it off a DAT? A CD? ProTools? Is it a switchable-sampling rate unit and if it is, why would anyone change the setting mid-show?), the "wrong guitar" theory is much simpler and IMHO much more likely.

Except he's not a perfect half step off. That long note he keeps on playing sounds like an attempt at the perfect 5th of the song key, except it's like, 1.75 half steps off or something- ALMOST an augmented fourth, but NOT.

[JGriffin]

You're almost right: Van Halen used to tune down a half step to accomodate Dave's limited vocal range; after he quit they made a big deal out of saying they no longer had to do that with Sammy. Dozens of guitar magazine interviews from the period back this up. I remember Eddie saying it was nice to "not play rubberbands anymore."


As I said in the other thread, if they played a 44.1 file at 48 as the blogger claims, the pitch would go up but so would the tempo. "Jump" is at 129/130 bpm on the album, so it stands to reason the song would be performed live at that tempo as well. Playing back the studio recording at 48 pops the tempo up to around 140ish. But the "clocking error" live clip is at 130. So either Van Halen intended to perform "Jump" at a much slower tempo on this tour than they did on the record, which makes no sense, or the problem is not the result of incorrect sampling rates.

My theory is that Van Halen continue to perform their back catalog pre-1984 tuned down a half step, or even a full step, or some interval they establish by ear, and that for the songs that need to be accompanied by a keyboard (in this case, "And the Cradle Will Rock" and "Jump," both of which are in their current setlist) Eddie and Wolfie are handed guitars tuned to concert pitch. And in this instance, Eddie was handed the wrong guitar (especially as the bass is not discernably out of tune in the clip).

Not to bring Occam's razor into this, but given the technology questions (how would a file come to be played back at the wrong sampling rate in a touring rig anyway? Are they playing it off a DAT? A CD? ProTools? Is it a switchable-sampling rate unit and if it is, why would anyone change the setting mid-show?), the "wrong guitar" theory is much simpler and IMHO much more likely.

Except he's not a perfect half step off. That long note he keeps on playing sounds like an attempt at the perfect 5th of the song key, except it's like, 1.75 half steps off or something- ALMOST an augmented fourth, but NOT.

[LeedyGuy]

Not to bring Occam's razor into this, but given the technology questions (how would a file come to be played back at the wrong sampling rate in a touring rig anyway? Are they playing it off a DAT? A CD? ProTools? Is it a switchable-sampling rate unit and if it is, why would anyone change the setting mid-show?), the "wrong guitar" theory is much simpler and IMHO much more likely.

I have a friend who opened for Bon Jovi and Nickelback in the same night and one of those bands (I won't tell you which one {cue the link to the mp3 that plays 2 songs at once that sound just fine}) had THREE laptops running PT backstage "augmenting" their performance. This doesn't go towards the out guitar or the clocking error theories, but it may be how they get the keyboards out there to the audience.

[PeterAuslan]

An acquaintance of mine is on tour with Vh right now. I asked him about it.
Answer: Guitar was horribly out of tune.

[;ivlunsdystf]

An acquaintance of mine is on tour with Vh right now. I asked him about it.
Answer: Guitar was horribly out of tune.

SNAP

[crow]

Other than that being a funny clip, who cares? I loved it when Ashlee Simpson's lip-syncing was exposed on SNL, but that's because she was(is) a non-or-crappy musician intentionally deceiving the audience about what was she was doing (which still opens the controversial question "who cares?"). The members of VH, jerks or not, are extremely capable musicians, and even though they were not playing the keyboard part themselves, they made no attempt to make it seem like they were. They clearly don't have enough arms to play it live, but for whatever reason didn't want to have another player onstage for one song. All the nit-picking bloggery accomanying that clip belongs in that anal-retentive " 10 mistakes on classic albums" thread. sheesh.

I'm not judging Van Halen's musicianship, professionalism, or talent. I'm not saying they're trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by playing to backing tracks (in fact, you're the first person to bring that up). Nor am I casting aspersions on Van Halen's road crew. I am attempting to figure out what happened to make the performance sound the way it did. It's a fun exercise for someone who is interested in music, engineering and technology. Sorry if that bothers you. I'll go back to...whatever it is you think this messageboard should be about if not talking about music, musicians and music technology.

I didn't mean to come off as overly harsh, dwlb, and I certainly was't criticizing anything you said. I was complaining about the original blog that this thread is referring to, which struck me as self-righteous in a way that kind of bugged me. Of course, now that I think of it, my post was also pretty self-righteous. sorry about that.

Now, to get back on topic, I saw VH in Kansas City on Friday, and "Jump" was in tune. It was a fun show, but I'm pretty sure the backing vocals were pre-recorded, which bummed me out and pretty much broke the spell once it was apparent to me. DLR's vocals, as far as I could tell, were real, and well done, but that's the bummer of knowing one thing is fake: I spent the last half of the show wondering what else was "augmented" and wondering why i didn't just stay home and crank the records if they were just faking it to sound like the record.

[JGriffin]

Other than that being a funny clip, who cares? I loved it when Ashlee Simpson's lip-syncing was exposed on SNL, but that's because she was(is) a non-or-crappy musician intentionally deceiving the audience about what was she was doing (which still opens the controversial question "who cares?"). The members of VH, jerks or not, are extremely capable musicians, and even though they were not playing the keyboard part themselves, they made no attempt to make it seem like they were. They clearly don't have enough arms to play it live, but for whatever reason didn't want to have another player onstage for one song. All the nit-picking bloggery accomanying that clip belongs in that anal-retentive " 10 mistakes on classic albums" thread. sheesh.

I'm not judging Van Halen's musicianship, professionalism, or talent. I'm not saying they're trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by playing to backing tracks (in fact, you're the first person to bring that up). Nor am I casting aspersions on Van Halen's road crew. I am attempting to figure out what happened to make the performance sound the way it did. It's a fun exercise for someone who is interested in music, engineering and technology. Sorry if that bothers you. I'll go back to...whatever it is you think this messageboard should be about if not talking about music, musicians and music technology.

I didn't mean to come off as overly harsh, dwlb, and I certainly was't criticizing anything you said. I was complaining about the original blog that this thread is referring to, which struck me as self-righteous in a way that kind of bugged me. Of course, now that I think of it, my post was also pretty self-righteous. sorry about that.

I'm almost never as ticked off as I seem to be in posts like that.

[numberthirty]

Other than that being a funny clip, who cares? I loved it when Ashlee Simpson's lip-syncing was exposed on SNL, but that's because she was(is) a non-or-crappy musician intentionally deceiving the audience about what was she was doing (which still opens the controversial question "who cares?"). The members of VH, jerks or not, are extremely capable musicians, and even though they were not playing the keyboard part themselves, they made no attempt to make it seem like they were. They clearly don't have enough arms to play it live, but for whatever reason didn't want to have another player onstage for one song. All the nit-picking bloggery accomanying that clip belongs in that anal-retentive " 10 mistakes on classic albums" thread. sheesh.

I'm not judging Van Halen's musicianship, professionalism, or talent. I'm not saying they're trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by playing to backing tracks (in fact, you're the first person to bring that up). Nor am I casting aspersions on Van Halen's road crew. I am attempting to figure out what happened to make the performance sound the way it did. It's a fun exercise for someone who is interested in music, engineering and technology. Sorry if that bothers you. I'll go back to...whatever it is you think this messageboard should be about if not talking about music, musicians and music technology.

I didn't mean to come off as overly harsh, dwlb, and I certainly was't criticizing anything you said. I was complaining about the original blog that this thread is referring to, which struck me as self-righteous in a way that kind of bugged me. Of course, now that I think of it, my post was also pretty self-righteous. sorry about that.

Now, to get back on topic, I saw VH in Kansas City on Friday, and "Jump" was in tune. It was a fun show, but I'm pretty sure the backing vocals were pre-recorded, which bummed me out and pretty much broke the spell once it was apparent to me. DLR's vocals, as far as I could tell, were real, and well done, but that's the bummer of knowing one thing is fake: I spent the last half of the show wondering what else was "augmented" and wondering why i didn't just stay home and crank the records if they were just faking it to sound like the record.

That would be a total drag if that's the case. To me, one of Dave-era Van Halen's biggest strengths was Van Halen as a solid live band. The old videos that seemed to be live performances come to mind. It would be sad if they turned their backs on that.