Recording Drums (Brave New World!)

[VelvetoneStudios]

So many of us are moving away from close micing kits, it's getting snobby!! So many folks are of the mind that if you cant get great drums with 3 or 4 mics (or less!) you are a pitiful excuse for an engineer. I love the sound that minimal micing gets, as this treats the whole kit like one instrument,which it is. That said, turn on VH1 or Fuse or 90% of today's radio stations, and try to find a song that sounds like a live group in a room. Tracking a kit for a rock or agressive group without SOME close mics is just plain stubborn. The interaction between the snare and rack tom, or the way a floor tom can help a kick drum blossom is really pretty amazing -When you can hear it! I listened to the local Modern Rock and Alternative format radio stations for about 2 hours today on a top notch stereo and really didn't hear much more than kick and snare on 90plus% of the tunes. Cymbal crashes, rides, and hats don't get mixed anywhere near as hot as they really come off in the room or in a club. Toms are pretty much only there for the fills and certain breaks in a few tunes, but thankfully I didn't hear many that had that gated/triggered "Where did THAT come from?" feel. The "Leader" of the act I've been working with this past week insisted on 4 mic's on their 5 piece kit,-not counting 7 cymbals- because he read it on the web. The drummer has pretty good technique, but I spent 6 hours last night automating EQ on the OH and room mics to fit the overall kit and fills into the Emo/Screamo/Nu Metal style songs. The other side of the coin was a couple months ago, I was helping out a friend who had Soul/Motown/Stax type R&B band in his studio. The Producer on this session had us mic every damn thing that came out of the drum cases, because he wanted lots of options at mixdown. 4 piece kit, hats, ride, 2 crashes, and a tamborine in a nice room took up 14 tracks. Of course, at least this way we had the option, and we ended up scrapping all but 6 tracks. During a long and tedious mix, the Producer admitted that he had gotten carried away, but setting all of those mics and signal chains and levels etc. ended up costing at LEAST 2 days lockout rate by the time the mixes were close to what everyone was looking for. I mean come on!! I have yet to hear of one mic setup that works for all styles, drummers, and kits. We all have our go-to setups and tools, but I dont believe that anyone is good enough to use the same setup for every session and always serve the song. So basically, I'm just trying to say to those out there who are coming up in this age of overwhelming information and accessibly priced recording gear, it doesn't really matter how you get your drums on tape if it's right for the song. Let's try not to get caught up in the "right" way to record, just try to get the right recording.


THERE IS NO MAGIC FORMULA, THAT'S WHY THIS SCIENCE IS AN ART!!!!!!

AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

[8th_note]

What timing for this post. Just last night we were cutting vocal tracks for a band I'm recording. The singer and the drummer were over and during a break we were talking about the drum sounds I was going to shoot for on the record. I made a comment that I would spend a lot of time on the drums (this particular project has 8 tracks on the drums) but I draw the line at drum replacement. I said I would manipulate the natural sounds to the best of my ability but I wouldn't be using any samples or replacement.

The guitarist asked me what I meant by drum replacement and I explained to him that many popular rock and metal records didn't use actual drum sounds - they used samples that replace the drum sounds that were recorded. He stared at me with an incredulous look and said, "I wish you hadn't told me that." He was completely bummed out. He said, "What the hell is rock & roll coming to." I had to feed him a piece of cheesecake to make him feel better.

I think that 4 microphone snobbery is silly but I guess we all have our drum snob issues. Mine is that I won't use replacement or samples. That makes me a superior engineer (and human being) than those hacks who use drumagog.

[fossiltooth]

Context is crucial.

Sometimes it's our job to give the clients what they need rather than what they think they want. Sometimes you have to talk a good game to convince people of what's best for them.

Some of the resurgence in people's interest in minimal micing comes from people being fed up with the kinds of modern sounds you're talking about. The rest of it comes from people reading internet forums who actually do want modern radio drum sounds but were convinced that 10-12 mics on a kit is bad, because they read it on the interweb.

By the same token, some people think they should put 90 mics on the kit because that's how you get a big sound, when their aesthetic would be better served by minimal micing.

It's all about context, experience and taste. It's hard to know what kind of approach to take for a given record if you haven't made a bunch of records before, and don't have the time or ability to experiment with a bunch of different setups.

If you ask me, when going for a big multiple mic setup, the best approach is to start like you're going for a minimal mic setup, and then listen closely while adding mics to cover your ass, never being afraid to throw them away in the mix.

Many engineers have done this enough times that they have developed a standard and effective "one size fits all" multi mic setup that should cover their bases in a familiar room. Although this isn't always the most romantic, creative or inspiring way to go about things, it will usually gets the job done quite well, and won't make a good drummer sound bad.

For a project where a band comes in and has 1 to 3 days for tracking drums for an entire LP (a lot of the work that's out there these days) having a good standby default starting place utilizing 8 to 12 mics is often quite necessary.

When people are prepared to take time in getting sounds for each song, a more creative approach, often utilizing fewer mics, can be the greatest thing ever.

[VelvetoneStudios]

Yo, Fossil and 8th......I feel you guys! But still there are couple of points where I have to disagree. If I am hired to " engineer " or rent out my space and gear, it comes down to the old saw..."The customer is always right!!" It is everyone's best interest to listen to outside points of view, but ultimately, the engineer has to give way to his/her client. -POLICY- if you've expressed your opinion and been blown off, deal with it, and (trust me..learned this the hard way!) DON'T bring it back up when it's time to mix,ESPECIALLY if you were right!!! I understand and accept the role of hired gun, and I've been on the other side of the glass enough to feel both sides. Sorry but if I ever paid my way into a studio and was faced with an engineer that refused to provide a routine service, (in this case Sound Replacement, no disrespect 8th, just using this example) I'd make sure every act I ran into heard about it, as well as the local Chamber of Commerce. -Sidebar, when I was a young intern faced with similar requests, I chose to feign ignorance instead of trying to talk a client out of, say, pitch shifting tom toms, as I found that when people are paying by the hour they are more likely to let a miscommunication slide than the differing opinion of the hired help.- But the reality is that no matter our own preferences, even if one is hired as a "Producer", the client has the whip hand. The client may be the record label fighting to get a song on Hot A.C. radio, or a teenage punk band's Mom trying to get her money's worth. The most incredible stereo image of a drum kit isn't worth a damn if the song is better off without it. Reference the Pop-Punk band Green Day's biggest single "Time Of Your Life" or the technically TERRIBLE recording of Bob Marley's "Redemtion Song" Sometimes, the best drum sounds in the world don't exist.

Yo....8th...........Save me a slice of that cheesecake!! )

[8th_note]

Many people have done this enough times that they have developed a standard and effective "one size fits all" multi mic setup that should cover their bases in a familiar room. Although this isn't always the most romantic, creative or inspiring way to go about things, it will usually gets the job done quite well, and won't make a good drummer sound bad.

For a project where a band comes in and has 1 to 3 days for tracking drums for an entire LP (a lot of the work that's out there these days) having a good standby default starting place utilizing 8 to 12 mics is often quite necessary.

That's my situation exactly. I always record in my own space and after 300 or so drum recordings I have developed a good standard technique that works for 90% of my clients.

Sorry but if I ever paid my way into a studio and was faced with an engineer that refused to provide a routine service, (in this case Sound Replacement, no disrespect 8th, just using this example) I'd make sure every act I ran into heard about it, as well as the local Chamber of Commerce.

I consider drum replacement a capability much like tape. If someone comes in and wants to record to tape I just have to steer them toward another studio. I was actually more joking about drum replacement - if someone really wanted that and the project paid enough money I would do it. In my case I've carved out this little niche of recording local unsigned bands charging on a per song basis and these guys understand that there are limitations that go along with my service. On top of that, all of my clients to date have felt like the singer the other night. They would be horrified and insulted to have sampled drums on their songs.

[Skipwave]

If you ask me, when going for a big multiple mic setup, the best approach is to start like you're going for a minimal mic setup, and then listen closely while adding mics to cover your ass, never being afraid to throw them away in the mix.

So true. I just did a super rushed project with a massive drumkit. I started out with overheads and room mic as if those were it. A very "standard" setup, but I knew it would give me coverage. In the end, those three tracks are most of the sound, but without the close mics on all four toms those would be lost in a sea of cymbal wash. On the other hand, because we were going to 16-track tape, I had to sacrifice the second kick mic and wish I hadn't.

In the end it doesn't matter, because they are happy with the sounds, but I will always have something I feel I must improve on the next outing. Very often it is making the drum micing more appropriate to the style/player/kit/room.

[VelvetoneStudios]

RE: 2nd kick mic... How often do you all use a 2nd kick mic? Most of the experiance I have had with that is micing a kick with no front head close and another a few feet back. I've never ended up using the far kick mic at mixdown, I lean toward room and OH's more than an extra kick mic. I know some folks like to mic the beater side of the kick, but I've never had much luck there. What are some of the setups that have worked for you. Oh, one I've had luck with is having a Shure Beta 91 inside the drum and my regular mic out front.

[glumble]

Hey guys,

I experienced the suffocation of too many mics on a kit this past weekend, although I think that may have more to do with the small room that was being used. Within the next few days, I'm heading to a pull barn that's fairly large, surprisingly silent, wood paneled, and has high ceilings. We're going for a much more open approach here, and on some level, modeling it a bit after Talk Talk's Laughing Stock drums (eeek!) which I know were recorded with one or two mics about 30 feet away.

Has anybody had experience working this way? Our main weapon will probably be the AT4051's, but we have an assortment of other mics to choose from, and I'm thinking of using a mono mic closer to the kit. I know delay will be a fixable problem, but if anybody has any advice of any experience of a similiar kind, I'd love to hear it.

[thieves]

Hey guys,

I experienced the suffocation of too many mics on a kit this past weekend, although I think that may have more to do with the small room that was being used. Within the next few days, I'm heading to a pull barn that's fairly large, surprisingly silent, wood paneled, and has high ceilings. We're going for a much more open approach here, and on some level, modeling it a bit after Talk Talk's Laughing Stock drums (eeek!) which I know were recorded with one or two mics about 30 feet away.

Has anybody had experience working this way? Our main weapon will probably be the AT4051's, but we have an assortment of other mics to choose from, and I'm thinking of using a mono mic closer to the kit. I know delay will be a fixable problem, but if anybody has any advice of any experience of a similiar kind, I'd love to hear it.

hey glumble!

i would just suggest being careful with the signals if you're micing that close and that distant at the same time. you'll inevitably have to nudge the distant mics quite a bit, but if you mix them with really close mics, the effect might sound really unnatural. you may want to try just doing the mics really far away and if it isn't your thing, try some mics a bit closer, say 10-15 feet, combined with closer mics. that way you won't have to nudge anything out of place

[thieves]

but then again, the 30 foot mics plus the close up ones will give a nice pre-delay, but if you're playing anything fast or intricate it might be too much

[glumble]

Thanks for the advice! I have a feeling that it's going to be a lot of trial and error, so I suppose we'll see what happens. I definitely think I will be starting with one distanced mic and working on getting a good sound out of that before trying to add a few others.

[Ryan Silva]

I can not put any more emphasis on what I am about to say.

Number 1 problem with over micing a kit IMHO: The energy you lose from your performers when they have to watch you set up mics for 4 hours, and all they want to do is start rocking. Many solutions to this, but most important is that you drummer is not board and yawning when tracking begins.

OK I'm done

[thieves]

I can not put any more emphasis on what I am about to say.

Number 1 problem with over micing a kit IMHO: The energy you lose from your performers when they have to watch you set up mics for 4 hours, and all they want to do is start rocking. Many solutions to this, but most important is that you drummer is not board and yawning when tracking begins.

OK I'm done

THERE'S A RATTLE, WE HAVE TO DISASSEMBLE THE WHOLE KIT!

[JohnDavisNYC]

if it takes you 4 hours to mic up a kit, there are some bigger issues at hand than how many mics you are using...

i think i would have lost both my mind and many clients if i couldn't get a drum set mic'd up with 6-10 mics and great sounds in less than hour. it probably takes us (aaron and/or myself) about half an hour to get great drum sounds if we are recording a good drummer with a good sounding kit, regardless of style.

john

[centurymantra]

I can not put any more emphasis on what I am about to say.

Number 1 problem with over micing a kit IMHO: The energy you lose from your performers when they have to watch you set up mics for 4 hours, and all they want to do is start rocking. Many solutions to this, but most important is that you drummer is not board and yawning when tracking begins.

OK I'm done

Yeah...that is a real important point to consider. I'm thinking about a recent session where the drummer had a fairly big kit - a number of cymbals, four or five toms. Originally, the drummer was supposed to come in an hour or so earlier than everyone else. Of course, this didn't happen and (you could of guessed it) was actually late Anyway, we're setting things up and he did comment on looking for a 'Led Zeppelinish" sound - more classic rock than modern rock anyway. That's a good thing, so we can focus on fewer mics. Then again, there's going to be heavy gain guitars going on...oh yeah, the drums are OK, but still the venerable beat-up Export set, but the kick is almost unusable without spending quite a bit of time on it, and the snare is decidely NOT great sounding - and not bad in a "good" vibey kind of way either. Ya gotta decide where to cut the corners to keep things moving. I pulled out an old snare I had with the intent of pulling off the fairly new Evans extra dry head to tame his snare ring. They rapped on it a couple times and said "hey let's just use this snare" and, with time dragging on, I just shrugged and said 'what the heck' - even though it's a pretty dodgy snare. With set-up taking forever and the band shuffling around outside, one really starts feelling the pressure of TIME dragging on. In this case, it was - throw up a minimal micing setup, just say f#$% it and do the best with the really sketchy kick (D112 on beater side was passable) and cross my fingers. The R84 out front of the kit with a couple ribbon mics catching room reflections did help out immensely. I just tried to give the drums an interesting character.
Overall, the band was looking for something kind of raw so it worked out and they like the mixes alright. This particular project didn't quite come together sonically for me on most angles and was hardly a highllight in my engineering career, but I just considered it another learning experience. I was actually surprised at how well the drums came out, all things considered.

Getting back to the original point, I will say that I do stray away from close micing everything (except snare of course - though NO bottom head mic), but I do pretty much always use two kick mics.