2 mic drums; small room; quagmire?

[lee]

i am fully aware of the redundency of the "recording drums" question, but i am going to ask it anyways...

i recently moved into a new place. it has a great space (livingroom) for low-dynamic acoustic instruments; e.g. acoustic guitar, strings, and wood-winds. it is a realiltively small space; i'm bad with dimensional estimations so i'd say that it's the size of two average bedrooms. i'm really satisfied with how the quiter instruments move thru the room.

now, i'm working on getting a drum sound in this room. i want to maintain a realitively "distant" sounding drumset because a strictly close-miced set just doesn't sit with the more ambient, acoustic tracks already recorded; the drums would stick out in a weird way.

the big obstacle is that i can only use two mics to get the job done. this is my selection: two LDC's, one SDC, and two dynamics.

questions:

suggestions on getting more lows from a bassdrum which is being miced at distance? (remember, only two mics).

suggestions on keeping the sound "in the distance" though keeping some sort of definition?

do i want my cake and to also be eating it?

thank you for you valuable advice.

[markmeat]

Maybe put the set all the way against a "back wall" (if there are two longer walls, put them on a short one), use one LDC (in omni maybe, if possible) close to the floor on the opposite wall (or close to it) to get that "distance" and some low from the kick, then use your other LDC as a overhead... blend to taste???

Just spitballing...

The standard answer... "experiment... use your ears... what ever sounds good to you..."


MEAT

[JWL]

interesting question.

I'd probably give the recorderman technique a try first, though that might still be too close-miked for comfort.

Secondly, I'd probably use the 2 LD condensers. I'd start with one, near the floor, a few feet out from the kit, between the bass drum and the highhat, sort of pointed up at the bottom of the snare. Find a good sweet spot for that and you'll get a good representation of the kit in the room. Then with the 2nd mic I'd find a distant sweet spot, on the other side of the room. If you want more low end, put that room mic in one of the tri corners (ie, where 2 walls and a ceiling meet), the low end will be enhanced in that spot. As always, make sure the 2 mics play well together in terms of phase....

[fossiltooth]

Setting up two mics can take as long as setting up 20 if you like.

The only people who can just throw up two mics and have it sound truly great in an instant are who are very familiar with that particular room and the available tools, those who are easily impressed, or those who are recording John Bonham.

If you haven't gone for a two mic setup in this room with these tools before, you have some playing around to do. Pretend like you're using 16 mics on the kit, and take an hour to try things. You might find some great sounds that don't fit this track but are worth remembering as starting points.

I guess you don't have a pair of Beyer m160s? Ever since I first gave them a shot on overheads about 6 months ago, I keep coming back for more. Those mics just rule for getting a truly balanced and pleasing image of the kit. I wouldn't call them "realistic", but they definitely sound natural. I wouldn't be afraid to use just two of those on a kit in any circumstance that called for organic sounding drums.

Regardless, here's the only advice you need: think of the sound you want in your head, and move the mics around until it sounds more like that. Don't let your eyes fool you into thinking that something sounds right. If you come across something that sounds better than what you had been looking for, go with that. And don't trust instincts that come from intellectualizing the process.

Good luck!

[glagola1]

If you're really looking to give the drums distance, try recording with one mic to capture the drum sounds and the other around the corner and down the hall a little bit. Add the distant mic to the mix to add amazing amounts of "room" sound.

You'll have to experiement on the single mic to make sure the kit is balanaced but if your kit is balanced on it's own right, it shouldn't be too hard.

I always record drums with a distant mic that is around a corned that doesn't get any of the direct sound of the kit. It's amazing what blending that mic into the mix can do for your ambience.

[standup]

I got a good drum sound in a small room (12 x 14 x 9 LR) using a 3-mic deal. The FOK was a large condenser and pretty compressed. If you have two mics, what about Front-Of-Kit (FOK) and one overhead 2' over the snare, pointed at the snare, getting cymbals off axis? Not that I'm an expert, but that's what I'd try. And hope there's not an important floor tom break...

[darjama]

If you're not too averse to doing some manipulation:

1. Id try a spaced omni configuration, or if that doesn't work an x/y pair.
2. get a sample of your kick alone, with a mic inside the drum.
3. use a drum replacer to add some kick "oomph" to the stereo track.


The end result should still be pretty natural, the sample comes from your kit in the same room after all. But if you want to keep it purer, I'd go for a pair of mics in front of the kit a few feet, playing with the placement will be important.

Perhaps most important is to listen to playback and adjust your playing accordingly. Go easier on what's coming thru the most, and harder on what's getting buried.

[shakestheclown]

Did I miss something where this had to be stereo?

LDC a foot or so in front of the bass drum.

Put the other mic somewhere it'll sound good.

Drums against a wall??

What does the wall sound like?

[kayagum]

the big obstacle is that i can only use two mics to get the job done.

Why is this? Is it because you only have a 2 channel breakout box? Getting a mini-mixer may help- even those sub $100 jobbers might help.

But OK, two mics max. Believe it or not, one of the very best drum captures I've ever done was a Rode NT1 3 feet in front of a kit, pointing halfway between the snare and kick. That's it. And I was using a lowly Mackie 1202 straight into an early generation Minidisc. And it sounded way better than a recording that a fellow band (sharing our practice space) made using analog multitrack taping in Chicago. Just proves that gear isn't everything.

If I had a second mic, I would have used a dynamic on the kick, and tuck it under the LDC for some extra low-end oomph. If I had a third, I would have used it on top of the snare for some extra crack. But I would use the front of kit mic as the primary. Heck, I might as well record from the spot that I hear the kit in rehearsal, right?

Experiment with distance with your main mic. This is a good reminder that the overhead/front mics can and often should be the primary mics, while the close mics are for emphasis. Most people do it the opposite.

[mertmo]

Not only does it not have to be stereo, why does it have to be two mics?

I've gotten some amazing drum sounds from just one LDC on a drumset.
Try putting your LDC directly in front of the drums, about 3 feet out. 3.5 to 4
feet high, angled slightly down so that the diaphragam is pointed right at the
snare drum. record a little, listen, adjust, repeat. In no time you should find
a great sound. Use my setup suggestion as a starting point and just move the
mic around 'till you nail it. In my experience, the higher up the mic is, the
more low end boom you get from the kick drum. (maybe that's just my room...)
Also, if your LDC has an omni pattern, try that with the mic in any spot in the room.
Move it around 'till you nail it. I had a lot of fun when I started experimenting with
one mic drums. It might give you the sound you are looking for! Plus,
it's kind of fun just KNOWING that you have no phasing weirdness on your drums.

[mertmo]

one of the very best drum captures I've ever done was a Rode NT1 3 feet in front of a kit, pointing halfway between the snare and kick. That's it.

Duh. Should have actually READ that post. But uhh, yeah. What HE said!

[Brett Siler]

I would try placing two omnis on the floor in front of the kit. One at an angle pointing between the snare and kick, and the other pointing between the floor tom and kick. Like this:


Then if you needed more ambience you could put a real short delay and/or some reverb on it.

[Danly]

i learned this trick on another post a month ago or so. -- Basically the above setup, only, if you do it that way, notice that the snare isn't in the center. You gotta picture a diagonal line going from the bottom left to upper right that runs through the kick and snare, and put your 2 mics equidistant from that line. So the mic on the left of the picture actually goes on the outside of the floor tom, and the mic on the right goes a little further back and between the high hat stand and crash stand.

[kayagum]

one of the very best drum captures I've ever done was a Rode NT1 3 feet in front of a kit, pointing halfway between the snare and kick. That's it.

Duh. Should have actually READ that post. But uhh, yeah. What HE said!

Hey- we can't be BOTH wrong, right? Great minds think alike

[VelvetoneStudios]

Lee, several folks questioned if you were looking for stereo and if you had Omni capabilities on your mics. Me too!!! One trick I picked up a while back, (assuming mono/ cardioid): Try facing your kit towards a 3 way corner, but not too far away. Place a LDC in front of the kick, pretty close to the floor, angled to about 2:00 if you were FACING the 90 angle of the walls.(which in this setup your mic will be!!) The key to the low end is the distance between the kick and the wall, the "distance" is achieved by the lack of presence frequencies hitting the live side of the mic. 2nd mic could be LDC SDC or Dyn directly behind the drummer, about head height angled about45 degrees down toward the floor. Move this mic back and forth until you get the right "depth" , but beware comb filtering from the waves bouncing off the wall in front of the kit. your drummers body should soak up the worst of the reflections unless he or she pounds all hell out of the cymbals! Also kinda shrouding the mic's behind medium thick cloth can really block the presence from hitting the mics. this can get dull sounding, but if you want that sound in that room with 2 mic's, you're gonna have to try lot's of stuff unless you plan on EQing and verbing all hell during mixdown!! Let us know how it comes out!! Oh Yeah.....NO thin clear bright heads on your kit, and don't be afraid to put some Gaff or duct tape on the cymbals!!