having always wanted some kind of collection of vintage drums to use in the studio, i began yesterday by snagging a 3-piece '65 Ludwig kit yesterday for cheap... bass drum and 2 toms.
good deal, but they're in pretty rough shape cosmetically. main problems are two:
a) bass drum has rough hole on one side by where leg used to attach, slightly smaller than a quarter, with splayed and rough wood around. missing one side's worth of rims, lugs, and tension rods, missing leg hardware entirely. seems to be structurally sound besides, and the open (rimless) bearing edge appears to be good.
b) all drums have been crudely de-wrapped, taking off small bits of the wood in a few places on the bottom of the floor tom. all drums have been spraypainted matte black with what i can only assume was the cheapest spray-paint available at the time.
these will never be collector's pieces, and i'm fine with that (i much prefer using vintage pieces that have crossed that particular threshold anyways)... but i would like to try and restore them in such a way that won't further degrade their quality as playable instruments.
assuming that going back in time and somehow averting an afternoon's worth of bad ideas and black spray paint is out of the question, what would you guys recommend as far as the best way to proceed?
i'm thinking i need to address the hole in the bass drum, get a new hoop and hardware for the one side of the bass drum, fill the grain spots where the wood got pulled off, get the spray-paint off, and refinish all three pieces (some kind of simple oil and/or protective sealant, i'm thinking).
i'm not a drummer myself and am not super knowledgeable about drum maintinence/restoration. so... all you drum/wood wizards out there, any ideas/tips/tricks/things to avoid/etc.? any help would be great.
they're over at our studio currently, i'll post relevant pics when i can.
thanks!
restoring a '65 Ludwig kit...
restoring a '65 Ludwig kit...
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
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skinsincyn
- gimme a little kick & snare
- Posts: 77
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wow...it's like a Frankenstein nip/tuck job. Who would do such a thing!! You know, they probably sound amazing as-is.
what size kick? I have a great '64 kit in champagne sparkle. 20" kick that absolutely rules. Every single gig I play with it, the sound guy has to sing praises.
I don't have any special insights into fixing them, except be very careful. That is some OLD wood that's been (clearly) abused throughout its life. Don't drill any new holes. I would just try to reinforce the splayed hole that the leg was in.
Is the other leg still there? Or just the fitting? Is it the kind of leg that retracts INTO the shell, or does it stay outside the drum and just swivel out of the way?
When you do get new hoops for the kick, consider using a front anchor for additional support. It will help take some of the stress off of the legs. http://www.drumfoundry.com/mmDRUMFOUNDR ... 04_100.jpg
what size kick? I have a great '64 kit in champagne sparkle. 20" kick that absolutely rules. Every single gig I play with it, the sound guy has to sing praises.
I don't have any special insights into fixing them, except be very careful. That is some OLD wood that's been (clearly) abused throughout its life. Don't drill any new holes. I would just try to reinforce the splayed hole that the leg was in.
Is the other leg still there? Or just the fitting? Is it the kind of leg that retracts INTO the shell, or does it stay outside the drum and just swivel out of the way?
When you do get new hoops for the kick, consider using a front anchor for additional support. It will help take some of the stress off of the legs. http://www.drumfoundry.com/mmDRUMFOUNDR ... 04_100.jpg
18" kick, i think (have to measure to be sure). lightweight, little thing. both legs are gone, but from where they were, i'd guess it was of the 'all external, swing out of the way' variety.
any ideas on how to stabilize the hole? this thing's seen enough hell as it is, and somehow i doubt a third piece of wood and some screws are going to help that (not that i'd do it that way...)
any ideas on how to stabilize the hole? this thing's seen enough hell as it is, and somehow i doubt a third piece of wood and some screws are going to help that (not that i'd do it that way...)
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
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curtiswyant
- re-cappin' neve
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:08 pm
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if it's really an 18" bass drum you have a true rare bird on your hands. I mean REALLY. And potentially valuable even in fucked up condition. We need to see pics. Are you sure it's not a 20?
If it's NOT an 18, I wouldn't go for a restoration in this particular case. If you want a 'player,' I'd mount newer style bass drum spurs (I NEVER suggest this!) which I only suggest in this case since putting the old style spurs on would require patching of the wood. The new spur could just go right over the hole.
Ordinarily if you're going for sound I would also advocate re-finishing the drums in a NON wrap finish if the wrap was already removed, but if it's been painted black and there are pieces of wood missing then that's not a good option. I might try filling and sanding the low "wood missing" spots somehow or the wrap will look uneven and wrinkly. Seen it many many times. Also, don't worry about getting the black paint off. It's likely that the pigment has leached deep into the wood and it will NEVER look right again. You would end up wood-bleaching the wood out of good health and/or sanding a whole ply off the drums. Neither is a good idea if you actually want them to look good and sound good. I say pick your favorite wrap finish, properly prepare/level the shells, and make it sexy.
WARNING: an entire side's worth of bass drum hardware and a hoop might get EXPENSIVE. Maybe not worth it unless the drum is a true 18". Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but often "project" kits like this end up costing as much or more in 'real' dollars than just buying the equivalent kit in good condition.
If it's NOT an 18, I wouldn't go for a restoration in this particular case. If you want a 'player,' I'd mount newer style bass drum spurs (I NEVER suggest this!) which I only suggest in this case since putting the old style spurs on would require patching of the wood. The new spur could just go right over the hole.
Ordinarily if you're going for sound I would also advocate re-finishing the drums in a NON wrap finish if the wrap was already removed, but if it's been painted black and there are pieces of wood missing then that's not a good option. I might try filling and sanding the low "wood missing" spots somehow or the wrap will look uneven and wrinkly. Seen it many many times. Also, don't worry about getting the black paint off. It's likely that the pigment has leached deep into the wood and it will NEVER look right again. You would end up wood-bleaching the wood out of good health and/or sanding a whole ply off the drums. Neither is a good idea if you actually want them to look good and sound good. I say pick your favorite wrap finish, properly prepare/level the shells, and make it sexy.
WARNING: an entire side's worth of bass drum hardware and a hoop might get EXPENSIVE. Maybe not worth it unless the drum is a true 18". Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but often "project" kits like this end up costing as much or more in 'real' dollars than just buying the equivalent kit in good condition.
googled the jazzette and the hardware doesn't look right... we'll see.
brad, i concur. pictures are needed here. lemme head over there after work and take some snaps and then we can know what the heck we're actually talking about here.
thanks, all!
brad, i concur. pictures are needed here. lemme head over there after work and take some snaps and then we can know what the heck we're actually talking about here.
thanks, all!
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
pre-actual pics update...
found this on ebay.
quantity and style of bass drum hardware matches, as do the style of badges. toms look the same and the bass drum hoop has a very similar looking inlay strip.
the picture below would explain the approximate size and positioning of the aforementioned hole on my bass drum.
i think i may have an old jazzette kit on my hands after all! if so, i should get at least twice that for mine, on account of all the mojo and character it's accrued over the years, no?
found this on ebay.
quantity and style of bass drum hardware matches, as do the style of badges. toms look the same and the bass drum hoop has a very similar looking inlay strip.
the picture below would explain the approximate size and positioning of the aforementioned hole on my bass drum.
i think i may have an old jazzette kit on my hands after all! if so, i should get at least twice that for mine, on account of all the mojo and character it's accrued over the years, no?
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
if it's a jazzette then it would be a damn shame that it was destroyed. 
It would also be a good reason to bring it back to life.
my friend has two jazzette kits, and with the bass drum WIDE open (no muffling of any kind, or maybe just a sock or t-shirt on the batter head between the pedal and the head) it sounds like Clyde Stubblefield on all those old James Brown records.
You can pound the fuck out of it and it always stays under control and never gets overpowering. It's the most awesome bass drum ever.
If you are into jazz at all, you will know the sound of Roy Haynes' drums on the old Chick Corea record "Now He Sings Now He Sobs" from '68. That was a jazzette and a paiste 602 18" flat ride.
It would also be a good reason to bring it back to life.
my friend has two jazzette kits, and with the bass drum WIDE open (no muffling of any kind, or maybe just a sock or t-shirt on the batter head between the pedal and the head) it sounds like Clyde Stubblefield on all those old James Brown records.
You can pound the fuck out of it and it always stays under control and never gets overpowering. It's the most awesome bass drum ever.
If you are into jazz at all, you will know the sound of Roy Haynes' drums on the old Chick Corea record "Now He Sings Now He Sobs" from '68. That was a jazzette and a paiste 602 18" flat ride.
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Judas Jetski
- carpal tunnel
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I had an old, vintage drumset in hammered condition at one point... Mid-60's Premier... I took it on out of pity--it was on its way to the dumpster. The thing was just wasted. It sounds as though your drum set is in similar condition.
For me the issue was that I didn't know whether the set would still tune up & sound good. I didn't want to spend a whole bunch of dough on drums that didn't sound good, and they were too whaled on to tune up as they were. So I just threw them together, wrapped them in contact paper, and tuned them up. They sounded fantastic, looked awful, and made for drum set #5 in the house. So I couldn't keep them.
If I would have wrapped the drums in some decent wrap I probably could have sold them for a profit and made a buck or two. But even though I knew they sounded good it wasn't worth it to me to re-re-wrap the drums--in time or money. So I sold them to InverseRoom for a pittance. He re-wrapped them and now they look like a million bucks. He seems to love them. Maybe you could ask him what he thinks.
It's a lot of work re-wrapping and restoring drums. Fun work, but work nonetheless. From what you're describing it seems like these drums would have to be a labor of true love to be worthwhile. You might want to tune them up to see if they're what you really want. Seems like it might be worth the 50 or 60 bucks for heads to find out what the drums do sonically.... and then you could decide how to proceed from there.
Or, if they're rare and worth a million bucks, sell them on eBay and use the money to buy something that's already nice.
For me the issue was that I didn't know whether the set would still tune up & sound good. I didn't want to spend a whole bunch of dough on drums that didn't sound good, and they were too whaled on to tune up as they were. So I just threw them together, wrapped them in contact paper, and tuned them up. They sounded fantastic, looked awful, and made for drum set #5 in the house. So I couldn't keep them.
If I would have wrapped the drums in some decent wrap I probably could have sold them for a profit and made a buck or two. But even though I knew they sounded good it wasn't worth it to me to re-re-wrap the drums--in time or money. So I sold them to InverseRoom for a pittance. He re-wrapped them and now they look like a million bucks. He seems to love them. Maybe you could ask him what he thinks.
It's a lot of work re-wrapping and restoring drums. Fun work, but work nonetheless. From what you're describing it seems like these drums would have to be a labor of true love to be worthwhile. You might want to tune them up to see if they're what you really want. Seems like it might be worth the 50 or 60 bucks for heads to find out what the drums do sonically.... and then you could decide how to proceed from there.
Or, if they're rare and worth a million bucks, sell them on eBay and use the money to buy something that's already nice.
yeah, it would be something of an investment in a hoop and hardware at this point to see how the bass drum sounds... fortunately they have decent heads on them already, so at least that's covered. the toms can sound off as it is.
with winter coming up, i could use a project of some sort. first i need to verify what exactly they are, then how they sound... then we'll see what's what.
didn't make it over to the studio last night, so pics forthcoming today instead, sorry.
with winter coming up, i could use a project of some sort. first i need to verify what exactly they are, then how they sound... then we'll see what's what.
didn't make it over to the studio last night, so pics forthcoming today instead, sorry.
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
DRATS! no jazzette for me.
Bass: 20"x15"
Floor Tom: 14.5"x15"
Rack Tom: 13.5"x10"
Serial number on badge on rack tom: 148636
got 2 pictures in and the camera tapped out on account of batteries. charging now.
Bass: 20"x15"
Floor Tom: 14.5"x15"
Rack Tom: 13.5"x10"
Serial number on badge on rack tom: 148636
got 2 pictures in and the camera tapped out on account of batteries. charging now.
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
The bass drum is a 20x14. The rims, etc. don't count. You have to take off the heads and rims to measure, unless you just have a feel for recognizing the sizes.Smitty wrote:DRATS! no jazzette for me.
Bass: 20"x15"
Floor Tom: 14.5"x15"
Rack Tom: 13.5"x10"
Serial number on badge on rack tom: 148636
got 2 pictures in and the camera tapped out on account of batteries. charging now.
The floor tom is a 14x14. This is a very desirable size for jazz especially and very rare. 14" floor toms, depending on the finish, can get upwards of $1k on ebay. But that's in good shape and with a desirable finish. In poor shape and with no finish, well, not as much obviously. But still nice to have.
I would suspect that the rack tom is actually a 12 x 8 with the rims off. Ludwig didn't sell any factory-shipped outfits with a 20, 13 and 14. If it has a 20 and 14 then it was probably the "Down Beat" outfit, 20 12 14. Otherwise it's a custom order or a hodgepodge of drums. I can't imagine anyone wanting a 20 13 14 but stranger things have happened. Usually a 13" rack is paired with a 16" floor.
rack tom is definitely 13", measured from oustide edges of the shell with the rim off. now that i'm inspecting closely, with light, the floor tom has different looking hardware on it as compared to the bass drum and the rack tom... gosh, i hope it's actually a Ludwig!
*sad trombone sound*
mismatched it is, then. pics STILL forthcoming (yeeeesh).
*sad trombone sound*
mismatched it is, then. pics STILL forthcoming (yeeeesh).
"I try to hate all my gear equally at all times to keep the balance of power in my favor." - Brad Sucks
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