Overhead sound.

[chips]

Next week I am recording a 4 track session for my own band.
I have spent this week experimenting with mics and setups etc.

The style of music is kinda 7o's rock with a slightly country slightly punky feel. I would love to be able to achieve a real heavy big drum sound and i am failing miserably. The drums just dont sound real to me !!
The room I am in has wooden floorboards or I can cover these with rugs if needs be.
I think my problem is coming from my overheads sound. I have 2 matched KM184's going into a valve hamptone pre (my only other decent pre is a single channel great river). It seems no matter what I do with these I cant get the kit to sound good. I am trying to start with the overheads and achieve a good sound with these before close mic'ing but it just doesnt sound good. The loudest thing in the overheads by a long way is my snare drum and it aint a good sound.
I dont know what kind of sound I am meant to be getting thru my overheads, I just know that the sound I am getting is not a good starting point !!

Does anyone have any tips ? Should I be compressing these overheads ? If so, what kind of settings or eq ? Should I try different mics ?? I have i akg 414, 1 neumann m147, 2 senn 421, a bunch of 57's, a beyer ribbon

Please help me. I am stuck
Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks
c

[skinsincyn]

Hey,

I have a few questions: 1) What configuration are you using? xy, spaced, ortf? Have you tried different ones?

2) Where are you positioning them? Directly over the kit? behind the drummer, or in front?

3) how hard does your drummer hit? Cymbals hard? Just drums hard? balanced? This should affect where and how you position the mics. It's certainly not unusual that the snare is blowing everything else away.

I would not try any compression or EQ yet. And, if these mics become your main cymbal sound, I'd avoid compression totally, since it can really mess with their envelope.

Since you're trying to make this your main drum sound and not just the cymbal mics, you might want to try some different positions. Have you tried this? Take just 1 mic and move it around, chest or eye level, in front of the drums until you get a nice and balanced sound. Start in close (a foot or two), then moved out from there.

Another question - you say a 4-track, with your band. Are you planning on using 2 tracks for the drums and recording the rest of the band live on the other 2 tracks? If so, you're probably going to get more bleed than you'd like in the OHs. In that case you've really got to get this mics sounding just right in tracking, as eq and compression are going to bring the bleed into play.

[fossiltooth]

It seems like every week, yet another new recordist posts on this forum with the same 'problem':

"Help! I have too much snare in my overheads".

Each week, I am equally baffled. I love having a lot of snare in my overheads, and a lot of kick and snare in my room mics. Lots of snare in the overheads is a blessing, not a curse... as long as the snare sounds good, and sounds appropriate for the song in question.

If the snare doesn't sound good through your overheads, maybe it doesn't sound very good, period. Start with drum tuning, selection and performance. Different drummers sound different when hitting the same drum. I'm not talking about rhythmic feel. I'm talking about tone. Work with your drummer to get the tones you want, in the room first.

I tend to mix my overheads fairly low in actual RMS level, but they might still make up a great portion of the drum kit's tone.

Well-balanced room mics along with a beefy treatment of close mics on kick and snare are often a good place to look for size and mass.

I wouldn't call KM184's beefy in any sense of the word. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm generally not a fan of overly bright SDC's like the KM184s on overheads... especially rock overheads.

The Beyer m160 (I'm guessing this is the one you have?) can be great for overheads, but only if you have two. I find their pickup pattern a little to narrow to be useful as a mono OH, but YMMV. They can sound great as room mics to. I think it might be able to provide more of what you're looking for. I hate to bring up such an obvious and tired reference, but it is the "When the Levee Breaks" drum mic.

The transformer versions of the 414 (EB, BULS) can be pretty useful for overheads. I know you only have one, but it might be worth a shot anyway. Also, no one ever died from using a mis-matched overhead pair. It can actually sound cool in some cases, as long as they compliment eachother.


Good luck,

[LVC_Jeff]

We just had a guy give a drum tuning workshop in our studio at school...after he tuned the kit, we very quickly and very haphazardly threw mics onto the kit, and it sounded incredible. Tune that snare, and I guarantee your overhead sound gets 100% better.

[drumsound]

I was gonna say things along the lines of Justin and Jeff.

First make the drums sound good then deal with the electronics of transduction.

I was hired and did a session as a drum tech just yesterday. The 2 guys in the band and the producer/engineer were thrilled even before we put mics up. I don't think we moved anything but the hat mic from where I initially put the mics...

[chips]

Thanks for the rsponses.
skinsincyn : I have only really tried a spaced pair config (one over the crash side, one over the ride). They are infront of the kit.
I myself am the drummer (i have a friend in the control room recording me). I am a very heavy handed (and footed) drummer but believe everything in a balanced manner. I have recorded 3 albums in pro studuios over the years and never had a real problem (one engineer didnt like how hard I hit the hi hats). I wish I had paid more attention in those studios back then !!

When I mentioned it was a four track affair, I meant 4 songs. The drums are all going to be mic'd individually as well as the overheads. Its just in the past I have always used the overhead mics as a cymbal spot mic (eqing all the lows and low mids out). I want to try using the overheads to capture the whole kit now.



The drums sound well tuned when I play them in the room, but when I listen to the overheads alone the snare and kick sound terrible.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

what kind of terrible?

try them in x/y right over the drums, like head height or a little higher and see if you like that any better.

[weatherbox]

I've found sometimes what sounds good in the room sounds awful recorded with drums when you're no longer hearing it at full volume... at listening volumes vs playing volumes tuning just seems way more critical.

But assuming the tuning is fine and the drums aren't set into the most acoustically awful part of the room...

First off, I would avoid putting in a compressor. I am all for comps when tracking, but only when you know what you want/how to get it, and we're not there yet. Do you need stereo, or is mono ok? i'd experiment with one mic over/behind your right shoulder (if you are a right handed drummer) so your head is sorta blocking the hi-hats, aimed roughly at the snare... so the snare is the main thing there but it's also getting some kick beater and toms plus the brass. Then another mic out front a couple feet, at about the height of the top of your kick as a close/medium room mic getting the whole kit. Probably the Beyer and either the Neumann or 414, try each in each position. Then a 421 inside the kick. If those three, after you've spent some time really trying to place them and aren't totally deaf, can't get you a punchin' mono full-kit tone, something is wrong with the kit or the room.

I like hardwood floors provided the ceiling isn't something like 7 feet low. If you've got a high or well treated ceiling, I'd use that floor. Maybe the ribbon overhead pointed into the snare and the two KM184s out in the room as stereo room mics, maybe a foot or three off the floor, then a 421 in the kick and a 57 on the snare. The 414 or M147 outside the kick if you are super fancy. But I'd start with trying to get a basic 3 mic setup sounding right.

Any chance of getting clips of what it's sounding like and what you're not liking in the clip?

[kayagum]

Try a LDC in front of the kit (3' - 4') instead of overheads?