recording upright bass

[Edisonsarm]

I own a nice LDC and a nice SDC (and have a decent ribbon on the way). Can anyone help w/ mic placement ideas - and or any compression or eq tips that have worked for you?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

one down by the bridge/ f-hole, one up around where the neck meets the body. foot away or so.

[spankenstein]

For a rockabilly slap sound I've stuck an MK319 right at the f-hole near the top curl. I tweaked it a bit with Dominion from DigitalFishPhones to emphasise the sustain or the slap.

[fossiltooth]

I own a nice LDC and a nice SDC (and have a decent ribbon on the way). Can anyone help w/ mic placement ideas - and or any compression or eq tips that have worked for you?

On messageboards, you'll always hear "There are no special tricks. Just listen, learn and trust your instincts."

This is true, 98.9% of the time.

However, upright bass is one of the few cases where there actually is a secret trick. All you need is an an, LDC, an SDC and a couple of rubber bands.

Well, it's not super-duper-secret.... but if you think about it, it's odd enough that it would take a rare person to discover it on their own. I know I wouldn't have. So I guess it's only kinda-secret.

Nowadays, I can't imagine recording upright bass any other way. (unless I was going for a particularly oddball or novel sound). Yes, it's that good. (provided the player and instrument sound good, as with anything else). Don't worry... someone will spill the beans. I just can't bring myself to do it, for fear that no-one will ever entrust me with super-secret recording methods ever again.

Some people use foam. I think that's silly. It has the potential to compromise the instrument's resonance. Rubberbands are much better, if you ask me.

[Edisonsarm]

I'm both intrigued and disappointed in your post fossiltooth. C'mon let's hear the rubber band trick!!!

Also for the record - I've always thought the whole "no special tricks, listen, trust your instincts" is lame - sure that's a given - inexperienced people are just looking for advice and a place to start from.

[locosoundman]

I guessing that he meant to say "suspend the SDC from the bridge with the rubber bands pointing up towards the fingers."

The foam refers to stuffing the mic behind the tailpiece with foam, which would be the other way of doing it. Rubber bands are definitely a better idea.

As an alternative, I've gotten good results with an omni SDC equidistant from the f-hole and strings, but on-axis to the strings (where the fingers are). However, if there is a jazz trio (or more) involved and they start playing some up-tempo stuff, you can forget about isolation - you'll get more drums than bass in your bass mic.

You'd probably be better off using fossiltooth's idea and taking a DI as a safety



btw - there's nothing secret about it - I think Steve from Aurasonics once posted pictures of this in his forum on Gearslutz.

[fossiltooth]

I'm both intrigued and disappointed in your post fossiltooth. C'mon let's hear the rubber band trick!!!

Mission accomplished.

Also for the record - I've always thought the whole "no special tricks, listen, trust your instincts" is lame - sure that's a given - inexperienced people are just looking for advice and a place to start from.

If you keep at this gig, you will eventually find yourself making this 'lame' point again and again. Sometimes, "there is no answer" is the only answer. You just won't get it 'til ya get it. Stay at it long enough and you'll start turning green, shrink 36" and start talking backwards.

We all go through exactly what you're going through right now. We all want answers... now. Then we find out the key is asking the right questions and trying to answer them yourself.

I guessing that he meant to say "suspend the SDC from the bridge with the rubber bands pointing up towards the fingers." .

.........................no comment.

The foam refers to stuffing the mic behind the tailpiece with foam, which would be the other way of doing it. Rubber bands are definitely a better idea.

Thank you.

...oops.. I mean 'no comment'.

You'd probably be better off using fossiltooth's idea and taking a DI as a safety

Well, if you ask me, the LDC is essential. The SDC by itself won't do the trick. It really has to be blended with an LDC pointed at the..... oh, you'll figure it out.
For my tastes, I'd consider a DI to be anal extra protection, and a potential waste of channels. But under (un)certain circumstances, having one ready to roll could save the day.

...Oh crap, I meant to say: "I have no idea what you're talking about."

btw - there's nothing secret about it - I think Steve from Aurasonics once posted pictures of this in his forum on Gearslutz.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was just being cheeky.

[rwc]

414 on the bridge in cardioid pointed towards the strings.

There's no other way to do it. The definition of a DI with the fullness of an amp, and you don't have to deal with the bullshit that occurs if their pickup is fucked up on the upright. Which, for me, has always buzzed, or stopped working in the middle of a session.

For me, it's an octava MK219 or some cheapass audio technica because, I cannot afford a 414. Maybe if I get more sessions. But the one time I did get to try the 414 this way, it kicked ass.

[fossiltooth]

414 on the bridge in cardioid pointed towards the strings.

There's no other way to do it. The definition of a DI with the fullness of an amp, and you don't have to deal with the bullshit that occurs if their pickup is fucked up on the upright. Which, for me, has always buzzed, or stopped working in the middle of a session.

For me, it's an octava MK219 or some cheapass audio technica because, I cannot afford a 414. Maybe if I get more sessions. But the one time I did get to try the 414 this way, it kicked ass.

So you're basically saying "point a decent sounding mic at the thing".

Sure. That works too!

[Z MINOR SOUND]

I've gotten killer results with a ribbon mic a few inches or so from the bassist's plucking hand.

[Edisonsarm]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... ndsron.jpg

yeah right after I posted my reply, I found the gearslutz threads.

FOSSIL - I don't know how to make my point any clearer, and I think you're missing it... there's a difference between looking for "answers" and just wanting to hear about other people's experiences and from those - getting ideas for directions to explore.

Anyway - thanks for the rubber band trick... now you're gonna be in big trouble!

[cgarges]

I record a decent amount of upright bass frequently in a variety of situations: traditional jazz, bluegrass, singer/songwriter, rockabilly, etc.

I've seen many, many different ways of recording upright bass and I've tried almost all of them at some point. It's interesting that many of the techniques that I've seen people use or heard them describe time and time again just don't work for me. I've heard plenty of great recordings that were allegedly made with some kind of large figure-eight ribbon mic pointing at the f-hole. For me, that's been about the boomiest possible scenario and any combination of those ingredients aren't far off, either. DI's never sound anything like the instrument to me. A mic down near the bottom (anywhere down there) combined with a mic up on the neck sounds unbalanced and artificial to me. The "omni in the bridge" thing can be cool, but a lot of the upright players in this area have those pickup systems that go under one leg of the bridge and leave a big, stiff cable running right across the gap between the bridge and the body, so you can't put a mic there. On top of that, you'd have to have a long-enough omni mic to get the positioning correct.

I've found two procedures that work really well in most instances, one of which works better than the other in terms of sound and unobtrusiveness, but can lead to difficult bleed issues if there are other instruments in the same room. The other is a decent compromise for that situation. I arrived at those techniques by listening and experimentation and are (as far as I've seen) unique to me.

It really is a bizarre instrument to mic and I have no idea why so many of the tried and true techniques don't work for me, but such is life.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[qball]

I record a decent amount of upright bass frequently in a variety of situations: traditional jazz, bluegrass, singer/songwriter, rockabilly, etc.

I've seen many, many different ways of recording upright bass and I've tried almost all of them at some point. It's interesting that many of the techniques that I've seen people use or heard them describe time and time again just don't work for me. I've heard plenty of great recordings that were allegedly made with some kind of large figure-eight ribbon mic pointing at the f-hole. For me, that's been about the boomiest possible scenario and any combination of those ingredients aren't far off, either. DI's never sound anything like the instrument to me. A mic down near the bottom (anywhere down there) combined with a mic up on the neck sounds unbalanced and artificial to me. The "omni in the bridge" thing can be cool, but a lot of the upright players in this area have those pickup systems that go under one leg of the bridge and leave a big, stiff cable running right across the gap between the bridge and the body, so you can't put a mic there. On top of that, you'd have to have a long-enough omni mic to get the positioning correct.

I've found two procedures that work really well in most instances, one of which works better than the other in terms of sound and unobtrusiveness, but can lead to difficult bleed issues if there are other instruments in the same room. The other is a decent compromise for that situation. I arrived at those techniques by listening and experimentation and are (as far as I've seen) unique to me.

It really is a bizarre instrument to mic and I have no idea why so many of the tried and true techniques don't work for me, but such is life.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Gee, I thought I was the only one who can't get these approaches to work!

The one system that works consistantly for me is to place a SD omni (measurement mic) out front at approx the bridge height, plus a 414 at the player's shoulder height angled down to the upper bout. For more string attack, I'll replace the 414 with a SD condensor omni up close to the plucking hand. With other instruments in the room, I'll use cardioid mics.

Two important things I've learned when recording upright bass: 1) SD mics and omni mics have less proximity effect. Proximity effect is NOT what is desired when recording upright bass (not for me, anyway). 2) Size matters...of the room, that is. You need lots of air space for the lows to blossom without LF buildup and reflections to invade your mics.

I have been playing & recording upright bass for over 25 years, so I've had plenty of experiment time

[centurymantra]

I've found two procedures that work really well in most instances, one of which works better than the other in terms of sound and unobtrusiveness, but can lead to difficult bleed issues if there are other instruments in the same room. The other is a decent compromise for that situation. I arrived at those techniques by listening and experimentation and are (as far as I've seen) unique to me.

MORE secrets...?! Man, I didn't realize that upright bass recipes were such a well guarded bit of audio alchemy.

Upright bass IS a tricky beast to record. I've gotten into it a fair amount lately, and have been falling back on the standard of 1 mic near the bridge out front and and SDC up near the hand, tweaked to minimize phase issues. Ribbons can be boomy, but can sound really cool too. I'm working with a bass/mandolin duo right now and an R84 down near the bridge witha an SDC up top sounds pretty great on this particular bass. I still feel like the upright bass is something I'm a LONG way from being comfortable with. An earlier post suggested an SDC down at the bottom with an LDC up top pointing down over the bout. I like that idea...have to try it. Then there's folks who are adamant about using one well placed mic, and I can fully appreciate this concept too. I need to do more experimenting. Recording a band recently with a number of instruments in the same room led me to use a dynamic down below (in this case a Beyer M88) near the bridge/f-hole pointing up. I considered the SDC up top in this scenario to be serving double duty as a 'room mic'.

[cgarges]

MORE secrets...?!

No, no secrets. I just got home late from my session yesterday and had to be up semi-early today, so I was too tired to type it all out. I've talked about those techniques on here a bunch, so a search ought to yield what works for me.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC