how do you all record cymbals on a drumset?

[C_R_J]

what sort of mic placement do you guys do? im curious. i have a pair of rode nt5s fyi. 4 piece kit. the regular. hi tom. low tom. 18 crash on either side. hh. ride. all the usual. i have been getting good drum kit recording results with the glyn johns method, but i think i need to get the at4040s, and ditch my 2020s. anyways. yeah. i can get my kick and snare to sound good, and my toms. still f ing with cymbals. help!!!

[drumsound]

Seaqrch for "overheads"

[C_R_J]

i did. im just curious what sort of mic placement works for you guys and what doesnt. ive been tryin to augment my glyns johns setup with cymbal mics, but i just cant seem to get it to sound good. im curious how you all approach eq, and all that sorta stuff. im just tryin to figure out if i just dont like how my particular mics sound with my cymbals, or if im missing something. i havent really done my homework on eqing cymbals. was curious how you all approach this sorta thing...

[drumsound]

The Glyn Johns thing is cool but kind of specific. Your room might get along with that technique, or your music. You post makes me think that you work on your own music at home. Is this right? You might want to try is typical spaced pair, XY or search and learn about the Recorderman method.

You could also try to use just a mono overhead. Do you know how to check for phase cohearency?

[mjau]

For me, drum overheads are more about getting the whole kit, versus simple cymbal mic's, and with the setup you're currently using (Glyn Johns), you're pretty much using a tried and true "full kit image" setup. I'd be more concerned about the type of cymbals you're recording, and the drummer hitting them, than I would with placing spot mic's on them. FWIW, I've been doing drums in a small, square room lately, and I've been satisfied with a single oktava mc012 about 6' high, 1'-2' back from the kit, and looking down at the snare (along with either a d12 or md421 on the kick). I'm lucky to be tracking a good drummer with a light touch on the cymbals.

[cgarges]

What don't you like about what you're doing? If you can tell us that, you'll get a more specific and useful answer. The most common oddity that I see with people is putting the overhead mics too close to the cymbals.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[C_R_J]

The Glyn Johns thing is cool but kind of specific. Your room might get along with that technique, or your music. You post makes me think that you work on your own music at home. Is this right? You might want to try is typical spaced pair, XY or search and learn about the Recorderman method.

You could also try to use just a mono overhead. Do you know how to check for phase cohearency?

yeah. i record at home in my small basement. the glyn johns method, with the kick and the 2 hard panned overheads thingie sounds great on my drums currently. i have tama starclassic performers (birch) and they are all tuned pretty led zeppelinyish. kick sounds best it has in years. but anways. yeah. i like how it sounds, but the cymbals are just a little lacking. i think if i get the 4040s ill be happy. the rode nt5s i have seem to be a little harsh in the high end sorta 2.

ive got a pretty good grasp on checkin for phase. still learning about it though, until hopefully it becomes second nature. what ive been doing is just recording scratch tracks, and then if it sounds non bassy, i flip the phase switch and then go for there. if its comby, ill start moving mics.

thanks for all your time so far.

[C_R_J]

For me, drum overheads are more about getting the whole kit, versus simple cymbal mic's, and with the setup you're currently using (Glyn Johns), you're pretty much using a tried and true "full kit image" setup. I'd be more concerned about the type of cymbals you're recording, and the drummer hitting them, than I would with placing spot mic's on them. FWIW, I've been doing drums in a small, square room lately, and I've been satisfied with a single oktava mc012 about 6' high, 1'-2' back from the kit, and looking down at the snare (along with either a d12 or md421 on the kick). I'm lucky to be tracking a good drummer with a light touch on the cymbals.

i am using a sennheiser 602 on the kick, and my at2020s in the glyns method currently, and tryin to use the rode nt5s on my cymbals to make up for the shitty high end on my 2020s. the 2020s and that kick mic are makin my drums sound awesome, but the high end just aint coming together right.

so i guess what im tryin to do it figure out how to use my nt5s on cymbals as best i can, and tryin to figure out if i can get by with my 2020s and the nt5s, or if i just need to blow the money and buy the 4040s ive been eyeing...

cymbals are all zildjian. old worn in newbeat 14 inch hhs, 21 rock ride, and 18 thin crash and 18 med thin crash. usual setup. high tom. floor tom. kick snare.

a light touch on cymbals? blasphemy! jk... i am playing pretty loud, and pretty bonhamish lately. sorry. i can play though. just that i hit a tad hard sometimes. i like loud drums.

[thethingwiththestuff]

it's smart starting with a nice drumset that like! now, since cymbals are your question, tell us the model of those.

if the cymbals are too harsh, either a) hit them more lightly, or b) move them slightly off the direct axis of the mic where the cardioid pattern starts to lose high end. or of course, c) you're using too bright of cymbals.

[C_R_J]

What don't you like about what you're doing? If you can tell us that, you'll get a more specific and useful answer. The most common oddity that I see with people is putting the overhead mics too close to the cymbals.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

i just dont think my cymbals sound like i like em 2. not sure if i just need to eq a certain way, or move em around ya dig? read above 2. i might have commented on this more kinda. sorry. im tryin to respond to each post fully.

[C_R_J]

it's smart starting with a nice drumset that like! now, since cymbals are your question, tell us the model of those.

if the cymbals are too harsh, either a) hit them more lightly, or b) move them slightly off the direct axis of the mic where the cardioid pattern starts to lose high end. or of course, c) you're using too bright of cymbals.

they arent very bright. when i got them a decade ago they were, cause they were brand new, but i gave em a good dirt bath and buried them in the yard for a week or 2. that seemed to help alot. seriously it did. ha!

i will mess with pointing the mic at diff spots. whatcha thinking? point towards bell? middle? edge? out from the edge? i will try all that. i might even try underneath. will see. ill get back to ya.

thanks!

[cgarges]

read above 2. i might have commented on this more kinda.

I did. You're not very specific about what your not happy with. You say that you like the drum sound, but not the cymbal sound. Do you like the way the cymbals sound in the room? To me, that's the best pace to start because unlike drums, (which can be tuned with different heads, etc.) cymbals tend to sound like they sound. Are the cymbals too loud? If so, you might need to reconsider the Glyn Johns method. That setup really tends to reflect how the drummer plays, particularly in regard to kit balance. Do the cymbals sound weighty or metallic? if so, you might have the mics too close to the cymbals? Do the cymbals sound bright? If so, perhaps it's the Chinese diaphragms on the Rode mics. Do they sound boxy? Perhaps it's uneven absorption in the tracking room.

There are a wide range of possibilities that can be diagnosed, aside from "i don't dig the cymbal sounds 2 much."

I do find that the simpler the mic setup, the more important it is to have mics (and a signal chain) that really represent what you want them to.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[roscoenyc]

vary the distance of the Glyn Johns.... (equally of course)

are you compressing the pair in stereo when you mix/listen back?

[digitaldrummer]

another question--you mentioned recording in the basement. how high is your ceiling, where are you mics in relation to the ceiling and the cymbals, do you have any treatment on the floor, walls, ceiling? how big is the room, etc.?

[Danly]

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... light=ortf
other things to search: ortf, x/y, blumlein, nos (although you'll probably only get results about tubes). There's tons of stuff to dig up. To my knowledge, Eq probably won't work well on cymbals because their frequencies cover such a large bandwidth.

Also, did you read the thread/article about dr. dog? you could try playing w/o cymbals and overdub them later. Maybe dampen them with some tape. What's the problem anyway, are they too washy? too distant?