Low-Latency DAW

wedge · Post by **wedge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:51 pm

Kindofa a bouce-off from the Sonar / Logic thread...

I have ProTools LE, on an XP PC, and I love it for a lot of reasons, but one thing I dislike intensely is the latency, while recording. I understand that this is an issue for all DAWs, but which DAW (PC compatible) is the most click-and-record, zero to almost zero latency, like a standalone unit? That's why I like them standalone units. No latency when recording. LE 7.x is driving me crazy. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? But if there's a piece of recording software that has the problem licked, I'll record to that, and mix in PTs...

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:07 pm

I just use the monitoring built into my hardware. Do you need to monitor the effects?

You just have to have lots o cpu power, ram, good HD throughput ect.

ASIO may help as well. You also have to consider how many tracks you want to record at a time.

Right now with ASIO I get about 5.8 msec, which you prob wouldnt notice.

Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3Ghz
2 GB Ram
250 G HD for apps
300 G HD RAID Audio Storage
Cakewalk Sonar Producer 7
M Audio Delta 1010
M Audio Delta 44 (2)

This gives me 16 tracks simultaneous.

Jeremy Garber · Post by **Jeremy Garber** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:26 pm

I get 2ms latency with my Firebox. If it matters, I'm currently using Sonar 7 (yay!), but there was no latency difference in v4 from which I upgraded. I get low latency in Reason as well. I don't think it matters what software I use since this setting is set internal to the Firebox.

I'm only using 4 of my 6 ins, but I have no probs recording all at once- even overdubbing. I can mix smoothly with way more tracks than I need, including insert and bus FX. ASIO 2 drivers are where it's at. Most new hardware uses this already.

Other info of interest: AMD Athlon XP 3200+ (2.2GHz) CPU / 3Gb RAM. I'm using two SATA harddrives- one for OS/programs, the other for media (audio/art, etc). Eventually I plan on building a 64bit system, but what I have currently works great and really does what I need. It's been running great for a couple of years now.

Obviously you need a computer that is up to par, but the interface makes a huge difference. What interface are you using? You should be able to adjust the latency. My Firebox goes down to 1.5ms, but I think 2ms worked out better for me. I'll have to try it on my next project.

Cellotron · Post by **Cellotron** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:05 pm

wedge wrote:Kindofa a bouce-off from the Sonar / Logic thread...

I have ProTools LE, on an XP PC, and I love it for a lot of reasons, but one thing I dislike intensely is the latency, while recording. I understand that this is an issue for all DAWs, but which DAW (PC compatible) is the most click-and-record, zero to almost zero latency, like a standalone unit? That's why I like them standalone units. No latency when recording. LE 7.x is driving me crazy. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? But if there's a piece of recording software that has the problem licked, I'll record to that, and mix in PTs...

SAWStudio - http://www.sawstudio.com - paired with soundcards from RME - http://www.rme-audio.com or Sydec - http://www.sydec.be - can give you live input monitoring and monitor sendbacks with DAW based processing to musicians - all the while stably recording of multitudes of tracks with latencys between 128 - 256 samples - which is generally imperceptible by the majority of musicians. People have actually used it on a laptop as a virtual digital mixer for FOH and monitor mix chores for small ensembles using these same latencies. Both RME & Sydec soundcards also offer their own onboard DSP and console software for virtual routing allowing zero latency monitoring during recording.

DAW life generally get's real nice once you get away from Digidesign.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

wedge · Post by **wedge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:24 pm

RodC wrote:Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3Ghz
2 GB Ram
250 G HD for apps
300 G HD RAID Audio Storage
Cakewalk Sonar Producer 7
M Audio Delta 1010
M Audio Delta 44 (2)

Spec-wise, this is almost identical to my setup, the only real differences being an MBox2 Mini, and PTs LE 7.4...

I should explain that I'm a singer/songwriter type and I build songs in my bedroom studio. I only really need two inputs at once, thus the Mini...

So, another vote for Sonar? It just seems that PTs LE makes it hard to get these settings right. You seem to have to experiment with buffer sizes and the like... Or maybe I'm just not up to speed on the easy way to do it in PTs...

Also, I believe that Digidesign is beginning to write drivers for some of their hardware to work with other DAWs... I'll check that oot...

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:39 am

wedge wrote: I should explain that I'm a singer/songwriter type and I build songs in my bedroom studio. I only really need two inputs at once, thus the Mini...

So, another vote for Sonar? It just seems that PTs LE makes it hard to get these settings right. You seem to have to experiment with buffer sizes and the like... Or maybe I'm just not up to speed on the easy way to do it in PTs...

With AISO and Sonar you only have to change the buffered samples, there is not a lot of changes to be made like MME or WDM mode.

I guess I should have mentioned, I can get my latency lower. Since I monitor through my hardware I like to keep my buffers on the safe side. I run them at 256 samples. It runs just fine with 128 and would prob be fine at 64. (This latency is at 24 bit, if I change to 96 it will be even lower if I keep the same buffer setting)

wedge wrote: So, another vote for Sonar?

Like I said in the other post. Once you see the power in Sonars layers you never want to use another DAW package. There are lots of reasons I chose Sonar, their forum is another big selling point.

wedge wrote: Also, I believe that Digidesign is beginning to write drivers for some of their hardware to work with other DAWs... I'll check that oot...

I tried PT M powered (PT for M-Audio), I think you can download a trial version. The track limts are a joke, and I think you have to buy the more expensive version to get any decent track count. It will also only allow you to use 1 M-audio interface at a time. There are some M-audio interfaces with digital inputs that will allow you to expand beyond 8 tracks.

Again, do you really need to monitor through your effects. If your just a singer sonwriter you should be able to monitor via hardware and not worry about Latency. If you need some verb while you sing, patch in some cheap hardware between your interface and your phones amp.

Jeremy Garber · Post by **Jeremy Garber** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:24 am

wedge wrote:I should explain that I'm a singer/songwriter type and I build songs in my bedroom studio. I only really need two inputs at once, thus the Mini...

I'm a singer/songwriter as well. Presonus makes a less featured interface for under $200 if you want to check it out (not sure if you are really looking for a new interface though). The Firebox has been perfect for me. Most sources I record only get one or two mics (or DI). Drums are the only thing I use three or four mics on. Next year I plan on picking up a two channel pre with digi outs so I can get a total of 6 ins. This is mainly to give me a couple more inputs when my band mate and I record, but I also want to experiment with a couple more mics on my drums.

RodC wrote:With AISO and Sonar you only have to change the buffered samples, there is not a lot of changes to be made like MME or WDM mode.

I guess I should have mentioned, I can get my latency lower. Since I monitor through my hardware I like to keep my buffers on the safe side. I run them at 256 samples. It runs just fine with 128 and would prob be fine at 64. (This latency is at 24 bit, if I change to 96 it will be even lower if I keep the same buffer setting)

I record at 24bit/48kHz as well. My buffers stay at 128. However, I have in the past increased buffer size during mixdown to give me some more headroom. What do you mean by monitoring through your hardware? I think I do the same, but I just want to clarify. I can monitor all my FX while I record/mix.

If I do get the point where I'm starting to get drop outs, which can be anywhere between 24 and 45 tracks depending on which and how many plugins I'm using, I take advantage of one of the new features in Sonar- track freeze. Basically, it just bounces your audio down (including FX and automation) so that you can turn off the FX thus freeing up headroom. Instead of having to go through menus to do the bounce down like in the past, they put a little button on each track to do this with ease. You can freeze and unfreeze tracks very quickly and it makes managing your overhead so much easier.

RodC wrote:Like I said in the other post. Once you see the power in Sonars layers you never want to use another DAW package.

So true.

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:32 am

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ wrote: What do you mean by monitoring through your hardware? I think I do the same, but I just want to clarify. I can monitor all my FX while I record/mix.

Lots of hardware will allow you to monitor the inputs without the signal passing through your DAW software, Thus there is virtualy no Latency. If you hear your effects using Sonar then you must not be doing this type of monitoring.

The Delta PCI cards I use have a sofware mixer/patchbay that allows you to adjust the routing/levels of the outputs.

jakerock · Post by **jakerock** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:37 am

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ wrote:I get 2ms latency with my Firebox.

Im assuming that you didnt get this figure by doing a loopback test...?
The settings in the control panel for Presonus products do not really represent the roundtrip latency of the audio signal... I dont believe that 2ms is possible with this hardware

I wish it was possible, as I use a Firepod...

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:42 am

jakerock wrote:
SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ wrote:I get 2ms latency with my Firebox.
Im assuming that you didnt get this figure by doing a loopback test...?
The settings in the control panel for Presonus products do not really represent the roundtrip latency of the audio signal... I dont believe that 2ms is possible with this hardware

I wish it was possible, as I use a Firepod...

Exactly what I have read in the past, I didn't know enough about the hardware to really speak.

All the crap I have read leads me to believe that a PCI interface is still the way to go. Firewire is pretty fast, but I don/t think its that fast yet.

Jeremy Garber · Post by **Jeremy Garber** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:24 am

How do I do a loopback test? Is this simply running a track out of one of my outs, maybe through an outboard fx or something, then back in to the mix?

If so, I did this recently with a DI bass track. I had recorded a clean DI and an amp'd DI from my Bass PodXT. I didn't like the amp'd sound, so I sent the clean DI back out through the Pod again with a new amp model and recorded that to a new track. It was a couple ms off, so I nudged it slightly in place to line up with the original bass track. This was in v4 of Sonar. I read that v7 has compensation for this, but I haven't tried it yet. I'm not sure if that is what you are talking about though. Probably not?

I don't think the Firebox has true hardware monitoring then. It did come with a software mixer for some routing options, but I never really messed with it. I believe the new Presonus box, the one that replaced the Firepod, has true hardware monitoring. I may be wrong.

Before I had my Firebox, I was using Soundblaster PCI cards (the Platinum versions with the bay box with i/o). I remember those had some bad latency. The Firebox is a huge improvement over those. Maybe I'm missing something here. I have no prob over dubbing new tracks or laying down MIDI tracks in real time.

I want to eventually get an 8 i/o interface. Something a little nicer than what I have no but there's no need yet. Eventually I want to just use the DAW mainly as a tape deck, and mix OTB. Slowly and surely I am getting closer to that.

tubetapexfmr · Post by **tubetapexfmr** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:25 am

The best latency is no latency. For this you have two choices: an analog mixer in front of your sound card or a DSP mixer built in to the soundcard. There are several of these out there right now. Metric Halo, RME, MOTU, and probably others have this technology implemented in some of their devices and it is infinitely useful. I have had some people who record with me for the first time ask how I got rid of the 'lag' that they were used to everywhere else on DIGI 001 or 002 setups. I'm actually pretty amazed that the DIGI 003 didn't come with some sort of latency-free DSP monitoring because the competition is killing them by having this functionality. I've had it in my MOTU 828 mkII since 2003! I've tried working with DIGI stuff, but that latency thing is an immediate deal breaker for me. If you are unfamiliar with the MOTU 828 mkII it has a DSP mixer built in that allows you to setup 4 stereo output mixes directly from the input signals with no latency whatsoever! All this runs on the sound card hardware without bogging down my CPU one bit. It is just like having an analog mixer without all the hassle.

TheForgotten · Post by **TheForgotten** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:43 am

RodC wrote:
SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ wrote: What do you mean by monitoring through your hardware? I think I do the same, but I just want to clarify. I can monitor all my FX while I record/mix.
Lots of hardware will allow you to monitor the inputs without the signal passing through your DAW software, Thus there is virtualy no Latency. If you hear your effects using Sonar then you must not be doing this type of monitoring.

The Delta PCI cards I use have a sofware mixer/patchbay that allows you to adjust the routing/levels of the outputs.

Yeah, I use two of the Delta 44s and I've got them down to 2ms in Reaper.
Reaper also provides for a manual input and output offset in ms or samples to tweak latency to perfection (I'm sure the other DAWs have something similar).

Jeremy Garber · Post by **Jeremy Garber** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:55 am

I took a quick peek at the Presonus website and found out the Firebox does have zero-latency hardware monitoring- which is what the software mixer is for. I never really thought of monitoring in that way when I overdub. I never noticed any lag at all (unlike working with the Soundblaster cards years ago). I just monitor my input through Sonar with the rest of the mix. I'm definitely going to have to check into this some more. Usually I don't put any FX or sends on the input until after I'm done tracking, aside from vocals. I like to put a basic verb while I track that.

The FireBox features a Zero-Latency DSP mixer that allows you to mix all six live inputs with a software output stream, then route that mix to any one of its outputs, as well as assign either that mix or a software output stream to its headphone amplifier. This feature eliminates monitoring through the computer and makes it easy to customize a mix for the artist. It also allows CUEING for DJ?s and live performance where the headphone output can monitor a completely different signal than the MAIN outputs.

I think this will really help my band mate and I. I just bought a headphone amp with two stereo inputs. This way each of us can have a separate mix while we track. I was going to use the extra (3/4 and 5/6) outs on my Firebox to feed the headphone amp. The way I was planning on setting it up, was to create two stereo buses in Sonar, one for each stereo out as mentioned above. Then I could add these sends to each track in the mix, and adjust levels within each track to customize both mixes. That way, we'd have two individual headphone mixes, plus the main master mix going to the speakers. I wonder how this setup compares (pros/cons) to hardware monitoring through the DSP mixer. I have never worked with separate headphone mixes like this so any suggestions would be great.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread with this. Does it still pertain?

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:20 am

TheForgotten wrote: Yeah, I use two of the Delta 44s and I've got them down to 2ms in Reaper.
Reaper also provides for a manual input and output offset in ms or samples to tweak latency to perfection (I'm sure the other DAWs have something similar).

Sonar does auto latency compensation, even for overdubs, its great, no more nudgin tracks after each taker.

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