Delta 1010 Phase Issue

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:09 pm

I have just noticed that when I switch my input level from +4 to -10 that the signals phase is inverted. I found no mention of this in the manual. This seems like a pretty large omission.

I have been through 7 emails with M-Audio and they basically won?t help me until I install their latest drivers. I am only one version behind and there are several issues with the latest.

I suspect that the button activates one more stage that is inverted. This stage is probably in the analog section and the driver has no feedback as to the position of this switch. So I doubt a driver update will fix this.

I did find one old post from another user from about '02 with the same issue.

A schematic would help, but if I can?t find one I'm going to open it up and draw out the level switch section.

I think other users should know about this if it is a flaw in all the units. I can flip the phase in my DAW or with the driver, but if new users are not warned it?s no fun.

I put some pics up on my website, not very very exciting:

http://beyondsanityproductions.com/inde ... &Itemid=28

palinilap · Post by **palinilap** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:21 pm

I have a 1010 that was somehow wired backwards and is at +4 when the button's in. Have never tested the phase issue though.

When I installed the latest driver all of the sudden only one Delta was seen. Rolled back and it worked fine (pain in the ass though 'cause I had to uninstall the driver, remove the card, install the driver, install the card again). Maybe my system was just acting bugging, but I'm suspicious of the latest driver.

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:35 pm

I have seen too many issues over on the Cake board with the new drivers to switch now!

japmn · Post by **japmn** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:20 pm

Hey Rodc,

I read that many of the early 1010 boxes were like this and that they also had problems with the wordclock. Before I purchased mine, I called M Audio and finally got a hold of a real person. They reluctantly admitted that it was true but insisted that it was fixed in not so distant past. I have never actually tested to see if my boxes are (what I consider broken) that way because all of my inputs are +4 dBv. I have never had any other issue with the 1010 units and ahave actually been happy with the performance especially for the price. It sucks, but you might just have to flip all of those tracks.

Jason

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:13 am

I dont mind fliping all the tracks, I check it any way. But I cant get M-Audio to admit there is an issue! I have seen the issues with the wordclock. Plus mine isnt that old. I remember looking it up when I got it to make sure, but that was about 3 years ago.

japmn · Post by **japmn** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:44 am

Oh, don't get me wrong! The guy I tlaked to never, ever, refered to it as a problem. He would say things like "The 1010 is engineered in such a way that when you push the line level selector switch..." and shit like that.
He never admitted a problem with the older units, just that the newer ones were different. He was especially vague on the wordclock issues. I had heard their were problems and asked for specifics. He said he didn't really know any specific reacuring issues with the word clock but added that the new units should be fine. This was about a 18 months to 2 years ago.
I don't use the wordclock, one of my units is slaved to the other via SPDIF.
It works fine.

Even with the annoying vaguity of answers I got, I still bought the units and would still recommend them to others. Hell, I got mine for $300 each new in the box on ebay.

I am thinking of upgrading to a MOTU 24 I/O in the future though.

8th_note · Post by **8th_note** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:15 am

Rod, you just solved an ongoing mystery in my studio. I have been having random phase flipping issues forever. I thought it was my cables and I even checked them all. It was driving me crazy. I use the +4/-10 buttons frequently for gain staging but I never suspected that they could be the problem.

Overall I'm still very happy with my Delat 1010 but this is a quirk I wish M-Audio would have fessed up to.

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:36 am

8th_note wrote:Rod, you just solved an ongoing mystery in my studio. I have been having random phase flipping issues forever. I thought it was my cables and I even checked them all. It was driving me crazy. I use the +4/-10 buttons frequently for gain staging but I never suspected that they could be the problem.

Overall I'm still very happy with my Delat 1010 but this is a quirk I wish M-Audio would have fessed up to.

Im still happy with mine, just wish it would say it up front. I went through the same thing, damn near pulled my hair out one one instance that lookin back now was caused by this. I finaly fliped it in the DAW and said f it.

I just happend to be doing a mic preamp shoot out and wanted to see what one would sound like with the -10. I had just examined some wave forms and they were right on spot, flipped to -10 and boom.

Glad I helped out, thats the main reason I posted it. I know this would have saved me some greif in the past!

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:02 am

BTW 8th_note, I ment to mention, I love your rates. It amazes me the bands that you try to help out show up the least prepaired.

I may adopt the same rate schedule!

Mradyfist · Post by **Mradyfist** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:19 am

I've got a question that's partially related to this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but positive pressure on a mic diaphragm should appear on a waveform in a DAW as a peak instead of a trough, right? So if I record myself tapping on the grill of a mic, I should see the waveform move up initially, and then down?

I ask because I've got a MOTU 24i/o, and I was just doing some tests to hunt down some phase issues. Apparently with my box, tapping on a mic grill causes the waveform to dip below zero initially. Is it inverting the phase at some stage, or am I crazy?

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:31 am

Mradyfist wrote:I've got a question that's partially related to this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but positive pressure on a mic diaphragm should appear on a waveform in a DAW as a peak instead of a trough, right? So if I record myself tapping on the grill of a mic, I should see the waveform move up initially, and then down?

I ask because I've got a MOTU 24i/o, and I was just doing some tests to hunt down some phase issues. Apparently with my box, tapping on a mic grill causes the waveform to dip below zero initially. Is it inverting the phase at some stage, or am I crazy?

This is normaly true, however, the first pulse may not register. Its tough to check - + without a known reference using a Mic.

A loud clap, click about 6" from the mic seems to be more accurate than tapping the grill.

You really need to hook up a knowen good mic, cable, preamp ect as a control, and record the same source along side of the mic/pream/cable in question.

Mradyfist · Post by **Mradyfist** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:20 pm

Funny story actually, but for the longest time I just had 2x ART TPS IIs and a Focusrite Red 8, wired directly into the MOTU. The Focusrite always showed phase the way I expected it (positive pressure is a peak, negative is a trough), and the ART TPS IIs showed it opposite. Someone suggested that this might be because they're cheap "fake" tube pres, and possibly are just using one side of the tube for each preamp channel which would invert the polarity, apparently.

I thought this was true for a long time, but recently I got a couple other pres, and they were all inverted; everything except my Red was showing up flipped. So I started looking at connections, and it turns out that the cables I was using for the Red are actually XLR-TS, not XLR-TRS (the Red only has XLR outs) and some genius had wired pin 2 to ground and pin 3 to tip! So my cables were inverting the output of the Red, and the MOTU apparently is inverting it again, making the Red look like it's the only preamp of the bunch that was outputting the correct polarity.

I'm fairly certain the MOTU is flipping the polarity on everything now, although I might play around with it more to be sure.

japmn · Post by **japmn** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:59 pm

RodC wrote:
Mradyfist wrote:I've got a question that's partially related to this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but positive pressure on a mic diaphragm should appear on a waveform in a DAW as a peak instead of a trough, right? So if I record myself tapping on the grill of a mic, I should see the waveform move up initially, and then down?

I ask because I've got a MOTU 24i/o, and I was just doing some tests to hunt down some phase issues. Apparently with my box, tapping on a mic grill causes the waveform to dip below zero initially. Is it inverting the phase at some stage, or am I crazy?
This is normaly true, however, the first pulse may not register. Its tough to check - + without a known reference using a Mic.

A loud clap, click about 6" from the mic seems to be more accurate than tapping the grill.

You really need to hook up a knowen good mic, cable, preamp ect as a control, and record the same source along side of the mic/pream/cable in question.

The slew rate of the amplifier (Preamp) can also trim off a little of the transient if it isnt fast enough. You could miss most of the positive information and your waveform will reflect what looks like negative pressure.

I don't know if I explained that very well.

Mradyfist · Post by **Mradyfist** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:10 pm

I think I see what you're saying, but I would imagine that the main "thump" of tapping the mic grill would be pretty low frequency, and easily within the slew rate of any preamp.

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:55 pm

What driver version are you using? Mine (5.10.00.5057) has the ability to flip the input phase on each channel under the "Hardware Settings" tab. That's in windoze, though, maybe it's different if you're on a mac...

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Delta 1010 Phase Issue

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